AH Challenge-Papal States Superpower

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NapoleonXIV

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An ATL where the Papal States is a Superpower in the present. The POD can be anytime after 1200. The Pope should still be the main or titular head but it can NOT be a theocracy
 
Just to clarify. Do you mean a conventional superpower (i.e. economy and military) or a superpower in terms of influence? Because, the Vatican and Catholic Church even to this day are one of the most powerful and influential groups in the world. I mean, think about the power they wield over uneducated devotees in Latin America and around the world. Hell, the Pope was a major contributor to the downfall of the SU. Look at what he did in Poland.
 

Diamond

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Hell, the Pope was a major contributor to the downfall of the SU. Look what he did in Poland.

I don't think that was due solely to him being Pope, though. It was the combination of being Polish and Pope that gave him influence and an international forum. Really, who'd listen seriously to an Italian Pope talking about the ills of Poland? It's like an American suburbanite talking about the plight of Chinese peasants - sure, his heart might be in the right place, but does he speak from a position of authority? In the case of Pope John Paul, the answer was yes.

As far as the original question, I think there's at least a couple of good ways to arrive at your desired result, Nappy. But it depends on what you mean by 'superpower'. I don't think its possible to get a USSR/US style Papal superpower.

1)A stronger (and more ambitious) persona as Pope during the Napoleonic era might've decried Napoleon's tactics as inhumane and united Italy behind him. He probably would've shared authority with a securlar head of state. An Italy like this might be able to forge a very close alliance with Britain, and possibly gain African and/or Pacific colonies for itself in the 19th century.

2)A successful Ottoman invasion of lower Italy. Rome might voluntarily become a vassal of Spain or France in order to guarantee its protection from the 'heathen Turk'. As time passes, Rome and the Papal States might become the senior partner, assuming superpower status as it takes over control of its former 'parents' colonies.
 

NapoleonXIV

Banned
Walter-Economic and military, part of the idea is to speculate on a person holding extremely great temporal and spiritual power in the secular modern world.

Diamond-very interesting scenarios, the second makes one wonder how much the Avignon papacy might have been an opportunity as well as a captivity. As a Great Power its close to what I need but not quite, though I agree with you its probably impossible.
 
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13XX AD Fredrick Bismark A leading General in Germany renouces his estates, & joins the Kights Templar. Discusted with the corruption he finds, he rises thru the ranks till he becomes Supreme Commander. At this point he undertakes a MAJOR reforming of the order. Such is his Charisma & reputation that the reforms are adopted by all the other military orders as well as his.

sunday Aug 0X 15?? Martin Luther nails his 22 point to the church door. Sept 14 the Pope dies, ML travels to Rome to attend the Convention.
Nov due to the talk about his points ML is elected Pope.
15??+1- ML undertakes reform of Catholic Church, No Lutherism, Church remains united.

15?? + ? Pope ML sents soldiers from the military orders to enforce his reforms.
Too get enuff soldiers the Orders enlist "Lay Brothers"

Within a 100 years the military orders have "Militias" larger than most national Armies. 400 years later they are the National armies, as the church uses it's Rite to pick Rulers [if they rule by Divine Rite, and the Church is the voice of the Divine......], to control All of Europe, and the World. :eek: :eek:
 
Although I was raised Catholic, few ATLs make me as nervous as this one. - Good Job!

Since the Vatican used to have termporal power, it is even possible if handled right. However, you do have to deal with the problem of growing national consciousness from 1700 on.
 
Well there probably wouldn't be "growing national consciousness". Mother church would take care of that- the church would be seen to be a power above any nation. Possibly this system could evolve to become a Catholic Commonwealth where local affairs are handled by the local governing and church authorities but Rome and Papal appointed authorities control all affairs above (shall we say) provincial level.
 
The Borgias succeed in unifying the Papal States (I mean eliminate the small dukes which ruled different cities) by 1504. Pope Alexander VI does not die till 1508. French troops travelling through Rome and with the aid of mercenaries bought by the Papal States prolong the war in Naples against Spain. The Papal States switches alliances opportunistically and succeeds in taking over Tuscany and Pisa. After the war in Naples ends the French and Spanish are exhausted. The Borgia controlled Papal States, takes over Florence and Lucca as well. After Pope Alexander VI dies, he is succeeded by Pope Julius, who is Cesare Borgia. In 1515, the Spanish offer an alliance to the Papal States. Spain would assault France from its homeland with a large force. The Papal States, aided by Spain and mercenaries would attack across its northern front. Modena, Ferrara, Mantua, Savoy, Genoa, Milan were aligned with the French. Papal Sates required vast aid to raise an army for this purpose. The war was postponed for two years. In March 1517, 50000 Spanish troops began an offensive against France. At the same time 15000 Neapolitan and 20000 Papal troops attacked across the Northern Frontier of Italy. Since, the war at home was more important, France pulled out its troops from Italy. Milan had little defense. In July 1517, Milan falls. Mantua, Ferrara, Modena, Genoa all leave the war till May 1518. In the other front, Spain and France have suffered horrendous losses. They request Borgia attack on France from the other direction. The Papal States ask for the retreat of Neapolitan troops and a payment of 200000 ducats. Spain refuses. The Papal States switches sides in April . The condition of switching sides was that France would make it clear to the rulers of Savoy, Saluzzo, Montferrat that they would have to become satellite states to the Papal States. This succeeds and by September, all of North Italy except Venice is under Papal States. The front against Naples shows initial success but the attack is halted near Benevento. Naples City does not fall. The war between France and Spain goes on till 1521. By the agreement a northern part of Naples goes to the Papal States and so does all of Northern Italy occupied by Roman troops. At this time, France send delegation to Ottomans for the conclusion of alliance (OTL). The Papal States does the same. The State of the Church, offers Dalmaria and the Mediterranean territories of Venice to Ottomans if a Papal-Ottoman Alliance decimates Venice. Rome would get Venice and its Italian territories. France also signs an separate alliance with Ottomans with the aim of invasion of Southern Italy. In 1522 the invasion of Sicily under the Aragon begins. A few months after that the Papal States and the Turks also launch war on Venice. The Holy Roman Empire and Hungary also launches a front against Ottomans in the Balkans. In 1524, Venice surrender but the fighting in Sicily goes on as Spain and Naples send large number of troops. In 1525, the Papal State offer an alliance to France. French troops can travel through mainland Italy to attack Naples. France agrees. France invades Naples in December 1525. The war between Holy Roman Empire and the Ottomans is not going good for the Turks. They pull out their forces from Sicily. In March 1526, Naples City falls after a siege. Naples capitulates. A large number of troops from Sicily had to be transferred to the Naples Front by France. By May 1525, Spain has won in Sicily. A new front opens in South Naples. The war between the Holy Roman Empire, Hungary and the Ottomans has led to the occupation of South Hungary because it was outflanked from the ex-Venetian territory.
 
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