Explain this map (possibly from a upcoming ATL):

Explain how this world came to be:

Bitmap3.GIF
 
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fhaessig said:
Who is the french autocrat?

Le Penn is noone known OTL ( it's quite a distinct name from Le Pen ).

Sorry, that's a typo. Same goes for Shagari (who's not supposed to be there).
 
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Grey Wolf

Gone Fishin'
Donor
Keith Joseph, now that is interesting. He was one of the powers behind Thatcher's rise along with the dead ex-Colditz guy whose name escapes me at this time of night

Grey Wolf
 

Grey Wolf

Gone Fishin'
Donor
Landshark said:
Airey Neave and how can half past eight be "this time of night"?

That's the chap, old boy, tally ho !

I didn't sleep too well last night, too many people moving in the street from 4 a.m. and a stomache full of Krakatoa

Grey Wolf
 
OK, your legend confuses me. Is the USA a multi-party democracy or a John Wayne autocracy? What happened to Australia and Canada?
 
So China is a democracy, Russia a theocracy, and all of the British colonies and dominions are one-party regimes? I've always suspected this... :p
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If I WANTED your opinion I would...not be busy guessing the history of an alternate dimension.
 
When is the PoD supposed to be?

France-Spain-Belgium wuld make me say Louis XIV. But the existance of the USA rules this out.

I don't see a realistic way to unite France and Spain with a Post french Revolution PoD, and the unification of Italy as well as the extend of Germany rule out a PoD this early.
 
chrispi: The USA is a multi-party democracy that's rapidly becoming an autocracy. That's mainly because of the highly costly, destructive and resource draining Great War that's going on...

fhaessig: France is under Jean-Marie Le Pen Le Pen, leader of the neo-Fascist Front National since 1972 in OTL. Italy and a host of other nations are ruled by Bettino Craxi, leader of OTL’s Italian Socialist Party from 1983 to 1987. Based on that, the POD must be a 20th century one.
 
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POTUS P.Diffin said:
fhaessig: France is under Jean-Marie Le Pen Le Pen, leader of the neo-Fascist Front National since 1972 in OTL. Italy and a host of other nations are ruled by Bettino Craxi, leader of OTL’s Italian Socialist Party from 1983 to 1987. Based on that, the POD must be a 20th century one.

Then, I have difficulties believing there is a plausible PoD which result in the joining of France, Spain and Benelux as a single state.
 

Grey Wolf

Gone Fishin'
Donor
The problem of early twentieth century fascists in France and Spain (and I guess elsewhere too, really) was that they were monarchists. The Orleans family was closely related to one, Carlist supporters made up a large degree of the backbone of the other.

Potentially you could look for a union of the French and Spanish thrones - one branch of the Bourbons claims both thrones. Working out who is who is a bit beyond me at this time of the morning. But potentially the failure of the French Republic and this Bourbon line coming to dominance may accept the Spanish king as King of France also. Considering Franco, it would probably come down to Juan Carlos anyway - I believe that he is considered legitimate king of France by some factions among the Bourbons.

As to Le Pen, well if he is head of government in the same way that Mussolini was, then he could be Prime Minister for Juan Carlos

As to what I hate to hear called Benelux, well its possible that a greater France-Spain union of crowns could have taken them by force

Grey Wolf
 
Grey Wolf said:
The problem of early twentieth century fascists in France and Spain (and I guess elsewhere too, really) was that they were monarchists. The Orleans family was closely related to one, Carlist supporters made up a large degree of the backbone of the other.

Potentially you could look for a union of the French and Spanish thrones - one branch of the Bourbons claims both thrones.
Grey Wolf

I could - barely - accept this in the late 1870s, I don't think it is possible in the XXth century. By then monarchism was too weak in France.
 
The existance of OTL politicians would indicate a later POD (20th C?).
China as a multi-party democracy is just weird. China under the control of the British empire at some point?
The Russian Theocracy says no Russian Revolution.
Communist India and Italy - again weird!
Marx (or equivalent) would therefore have had to exist, but not to have had such an impact in Russia. Lenin sticks with Law?
The unification of France and Spain would indicate a recent war between the two. Spain on the side of the Germans in WW1/2?
Ottoman Empire as traditional monarchy - to survive at all would have needed.

So, POD in early twentieth century.

Spanish civil war suceeds.
Russian Revolution doesn't.
Germany wins WW1.

And then MAJOR BUTTERFLY EFFECT??
 
Justin Pickard said:
The unification of France and Spain would indicate a recent war between the two. Spain on the side of the Germans in WW1/2?
Ottoman Empire as traditional monarchy - to survive at all would have needed.

So, POD in early twentieth century.

Spanish civil war suceeds.
Russian Revolution doesn't.
Germany wins WW1.

And then MAJOR BUTTERFLY EFFECT??


German win in WWI is contradicted by the map, as Alsace/Moselle is french.

As for unification of Spain and France because of WWI/II, that's ASB territory. Even Monaco was not incorporated to France after siding with the Nazi in WWII.

Also Common french/Spanish Monarchy requires a Louis XIV PoD.
 
Looks utterly impossible to me - it looks too different from OTL to be the result of any 20th century POD, but a pre-20th century POD would be extremely unlikely to give the Oder-Neisse line as the German-Polish border...
 
Justin Pickard said:
The existance of OTL politicians would indicate a later POD (20th C?).
China as a multi-party democracy is just weird. China under the control of the British empire at some point?
The Russian Theocracy says no Russian Revolution.
Communist India and Italy - again weird!
Marx (or equivalent) would therefore have had to exist, but not to have had such an impact in Russia. Lenin sticks with Law?
The unification of France and Spain would indicate a recent war between the two. Spain on the side of the Germans in WW1/2?
Ottoman Empire as traditional monarchy - to survive at all would have needed.

So, POD in early twentieth century.

Spanish civil war suceeds.
Russian Revolution doesn't.
Germany wins WW1.

And then MAJOR BUTTERFLY EFFECT??

You're very close to the POD. Keep thinking, the POD is in the first 15 years of the 20th century.
 
fhaessig said:
German win in WWI is contradicted by the map, as Alsace/Moselle is french.

As for unification of Spain and France because of WWI/II, that's ASB territory. Even Monaco was not incorporated to France after siding with the Nazi in WWII.

Also Common french/Spanish Monarchy requires a Louis XIV PoD.

Not necessarily. There have been four great wars according to the map. Germany could have one the first one and subsequently lost in one of the later conflicts.

Also, Spain and France didn't merge because of either WWI or WWII…
 
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