Dutch Battleships

Fearless Leader · Feb 26, 2004

In 1912 the Dutch Navy commissioned a study to see if Battleships were a feasible prospect for the Dutch Navy. In IRL they were turned down, But WI they decided to build the Battleships what then?

An account of the study can be found here
http://leden.tref.nl/~jviss000/Default.htm

Grey Wolf · Feb 26, 2004

Fearless Leader said:
In 1912 the Dutch Navy commissioned a study to see if Battleships were a feasible prospect for the Dutch Navy. In IRL they were turned down, But WI they decided to build the Battleships what then?

An account of the study can be found here
http://leden.tref.nl/~jviss000/Default.htm

Hmmm, I was under the impression that the contracts were going to be awarded but that the outbreak of war prevented it.

So, set aside the First World War and by c1918 the Netherlands may have 3 battlecruiser type dreadnoughts, probably built to German designs

Grey Wolf

Wiggy · Feb 26, 2004

Grey Wolf said:
Hmmm, I was under the impression that the contracts were going to be awarded but that the outbreak of war prevented it.

So, set aside the First World War and by c1918 the Netherlands may have 3 battlecruiser type dreadnoughts, probably built to German designs

Grey Wolf

I could imagine Britain getting antsy over this – Brittania Rules the Waves and all that. While they were on friendly terms with the Dutch (as near as I'm aware) they would probably be quite worried about the possibility at some time of these battleships falling into the hands of the Germans. Recall what happened to the French fleet in WWII after the fall of France. Would likely have caused the Germans some problem, too, as they tried to establish themselves as a maritime power.

Grey Wolf · Feb 26, 2004

IRC the Dutch were intending to deploy them to the East Indies to protect the colonies against potential foreign battleships in that part of the world.

Grey Wolf

Grimm Reaper · Feb 26, 2004

And what effect would this have on the 5-5-3 treaty between the US, UK, and Japan which actually had nine nations involved? Japan was already unhappy without having to consider more European battleships there.

And once the three were done, would the Netherlands be happy about the end of jobs in the shipyards or would more ships be built, perhaps several cruisers and destroyers? Maybe even a light carrier similar to one of the Japanese ships that carried 16-24 planes?

Grey Wolf · Feb 26, 2004

Grimm Reaper said:
And what effect would this have on the 5-5-3 treaty between the US, UK, and Japan which actually had nine nations involved? Japan was already unhappy without having to consider more European battleships there.

And once the three were done, would the Netherlands be happy about the end of jobs in the shipyards or would more ships be built, perhaps several cruisers and destroyers? Maybe even a light carrier similar to one of the Japanese ships that carried 16-24 planes?

Whats 5-5-3 ? Are you sure you're not thinking Washington Treaty which is after this ?

I imagine the shipyards would have gone to work on a lot more cruisers and destroyers. OTL when the battleships were cancelled I think they ground out a cruiser series, but after having tooled up for BBs they would definitely need to produice something thereafter. Of course it doesn't have to be warships, could be liners, and it doesn't have to be for the Netherlands, could be for other nations

Grey Wolf

David S Poepoe · Feb 26, 2004

I had to wait until I got home from work to take a look at my copy of Siegfried Breyer's Battleships and Battle Cruisers 1905-1970 which had a fairly detailed entry on the battleship aspirations of the Dutch.

"Twice in its history did the Netherlands navy plan the construction of capital ships. In both cases this occured immediately prior to the outbreak of world wars. As a result, the programmes had to be abandoned."

Now is that a strange coincidence or what?

While the 1912 plan had been rejected the defense of the Netherlands Indies was reconsidered in 1913 and the following plan was suggested:

9 battleships
6 destroyers
16 torpedo boats
8 large submarines
2 large minelayers

"A particularly noteworthy feature of this programme was the long term within which it was to carried out: the period envisaged was 35 years, ie. until 1949. This would have meant that by the time the last battleship was completed the first ones would have been completely obsolete. Under these circumstances it is unlikely that the plans envisaged the same design for all nine ships; three or four different and always improved types would have been more likely.

According to the original intentions, the five more modern battleships were to have been stationed in the Netherlands Indies, four of these within the squadron formation and the fifth in reserve. The four older ships were to have been stationed in home waters."

Melvin Loh · Feb 27, 2004

How would the presence of Royal Netherlands Navy battleships have impacted on the course of WWII ? Any which were in the Atlantic would probably have joined the rest of the Dutch fleet in British ports (as occurred after Queen Wilhelmina and her govt were ferried to England just before the Netherlands capitulated), and would've been attached to the RN to participate in such ops as the hunt for the BISMARCK in 1941, convoy escort duties to Murmansk, and providing fire support for OVERLORD in June 1944- provided they weren't lost to the Luftwaffe early on. Given the Dutch govt-in-exile being quickly established in England and supported by a fair armed forces contingent, I doubt that there would've been much of an issue re the possibility of the fleet falling into enemy hands as occurred with the French Navy and Mers-el-Kebirs et al.

OTOH, if there were Dutch battleships in the Pacific, they could've been sent to the bottom with HMS PRINCE OF WALES and REPULSE in Dec 1941 had the NEI command decided to deploy their major naval forces- as they did OTL with their cruisers, subs and bombers- in forward defence to assist the British defence of Malaya. Or what about if these capital ships were held back to participate in the Java Sea ? What impact could Allied battleships (of which there were none available after Pearl Harbour and the loss of PRINCE OF WALES and REPULSE) have had on the impact of the war in SWPA at that early stage, provided of course they weren't sunk 1st ?

Abdul Hadi Pasha · Feb 27, 2004

Melvin Loh said:
How would the presence of Royal Netherlands Navy battleships have impacted on the course of WWII ? Any which were in the Atlantic would probably have joined the rest of the Dutch fleet in British ports (as occurred after Queen Wilhelmina and her govt were ferried to England just before the Netherlands capitulated), and would've been attached to the RN to participate in such ops as the hunt for the BISMARCK in 1941, convoy escort duties to Murmansk, and providing fire support for OVERLORD in June 1944- provided they weren't lost to the Luftwaffe early on. Given the Dutch govt-in-exile being quickly established in England and supported by a fair armed forces contingent, I doubt that there would've been much of an issue re the possibility of the fleet falling into enemy hands as occurred with the French Navy and Mers-el-Kebirs et al.

OTOH, if there were Dutch battleships in the Pacific, they could've been sent to the bottom with HMS PRINCE OF WALES and REPULSE in Dec 1941 had the NEI command decided to deploy their major naval forces- as they did OTL with their cruisers, subs and bombers- in forward defence to assist the British defence of Malaya. Or what about if these capital ships were held back to participate in the Java Sea ? What impact could Allied battleships (of which there were none available after Pearl Harbour and the loss of PRINCE OF WALES and REPULSE) have had on the impact of the war in SWPA at that early stage, provided of course they weren't sunk 1st ?

Dutch battleships were all intended for the Neth. East Indes as they would serve no purpose in the Atlantic. I doubt they would have been left exposed without air cover as was PoW and Repulse, and their presence would have been likely to cause the Japanese to radically rethink their position.