WI: John Paul II a truly liberal pope

Straha

Banned
How about this:

JP2 takes over, BUT in fact he is socially progressive. He's hidden his
politics throughout his career, or has a personality change following a
knock on the head. Or something. Whilst still deriding communism, he's far
more upfront in his opposition to unrestrained capitalism. Four major differences in his
policy:

1) Bull 'De Populus Mundi' in 1982 recognises the use of contraception.

2) Liberation Theologists not sacked: instead, a new order in founded, based
on Jesuit cadres and led by Leornado Boff: the Samaritan Order. It is an anti-communist order thats devoted to helping the poor, and specialises in creating credit unions, peasants' unions, barrio associations, etc. 1983 Bull on just wars appears to allow armed resistance to oppressive states. Radical democratic insurgents are all over Latin America by 1980 and the USA's support of dictators beigns to look bad.

3) Roberto Calvi found hanging under Westminster Bridge, having tied himself
up, in 1981. Details of the level of corruption in 'P2' and the Banco
Ambrosiano are revealed: 'Clean Hands' begins ten years earlier. Gladio is
exposed in its entirely.

4) Catholic Church allows ordination of women in 1992. A split from it,
claiming about 100 million members worldwide, joins the Orthodox communion.
Orthodoxy is reluctant to accept them all: 'Old Catholics' become
increasingly sectarian.

So, is the above a Sol Campbell, or is it a Martin Keown?
 
one day i do see a split between the old catholic faith and more moderate americans. I am friends with a retired bishop who has told me there have been some what secretative discussions (as secretive as hundreds of peple can be) of splitting aparat from the mid 50 to the early 80's.
 
Actually there already exists an Old-Catholic church in the Netherlands, since 1723, independent of the Pope. And they ordinate women.
Might be confusing if there are two.
 
The Holy Father may be modern but he is still a devote Catholic. You would need a radical change in his personality, probably including him not being a priest, in order to do the kinds of things you want. Not to mention even if he would do that it would go against 2000 years of Catholic tradition and teaching including the recent VC2.
 
Actually Wotylja was a prominent member of New Theology. He was one of 5 people to write the Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World considered by many to be the most progressive of the documents approved by the Second Vatican Council.

However JP2's brand of New Theology tended to be closer to the more cautious DeLubac/von Balthasar/Ratzinger school than the Rahner/Congers branch of New Theology. The conflict in the post concilar church was not between Old Theology and New but rather between the various strands of New Theology.

It is possible to see him supporting aftificial contraception (he is actually rather enthuisiastic about natural contraception which is in itself a change in Catholic thinking). He was on the commission which Pope Paul rejected and is thought to have voted for artificial contraception while he was on it)

Liberation Theology: It is possible that he could reach a middle ground with more moderate formulations of Liberation Theology. But given his bad experience with Marxism as a state religion he would not approve any program that equates jesus and Marx.

Ordination of woman: What was interesting when JP2 took over it was Feminists that took the most immediate dislike to him. The other progressive factions had for the second time breathed a deep sigh of relief that Siri had not become Pope and on the basis of his New Theology roots were willing to give the Polish Pope a period of grace. Not so the feminists.

I do not see him ordaining women under any conceivable condition.

Tom
 
This all very quaint, but utterly irrelevant. The Catholic Church has virtually no power with most people in the world, even Catholics. Even in nations where Catholicism is the predominant religion, few people follow its tenets strictly.

The Vatican is a dinosaur, whose existence is mercifully allowed by the Lateran treaty. Need I point out that while the Pope may twiddle his thumbs over contraception, there are priests fondling little boys.
 
Adamanteus said:
This all very quaint, but utterly irrelevant. The Catholic Church has virtually no power with most people in the world, even Catholics. Even in nations where Catholicism is the predominant religion, few people follow its tenets strictly.

THere are parets of the world where you'd be surprised how much weight a papal pastoral letter carries. I'm not talking solely of the mountains of Peru or rural francophone Africa either - a year in Ireland has been an education. However, given that in much of the industrialised world Catholicism's influence is on the waner, that is not least the case because of the church's positions on contraception, female ordination and celibacy. If these positions are altered (though I agree JPII is a bad candidate for it), that might play out differently as well. John XXIII had enormous influence among the faithful in western countries, and was massively popular. If the church had managed to continue in his vein, it could have remained far more respected.
 
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