Islamic France

In this TL I'm currently in the proccess of writing, France is conquered by Muslims early on, (not the main point of the TL, though) and I need a name for it. What would a Muslim France be called? I heard al-Aquitane somewhere, but I'm not sure. Any suggestions?
 

Faeelin

Banned
Firanj of course. Or to make it al-something or other. Al-aquitane might not work. al-provenciya? Of the provencals?
 

Grey Wolf

Gone Fishin'
Donor
Very interesting, Scott, but if you are going to say 'of course' could you explain why ?

Grey Wolf
 
I was leaning toward al-Firanja, but I read somewhere that it's the Muslim word for Europe, not just France. But it does mean 'land of the Franks', so it could work for just France.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Grey Wolf said:
Very interesting, Scott, but if you are going to say 'of course' could you explain why ?

Grey Wolf

Of course.

Firanj was the term for the land of the Franks.
 
tetsu-katana said:
I was leaning toward al-Firanja, but I read somewhere that it's the Muslim word for Europe, not just France. But it does mean 'land of the Franks', so it could work for just France.

At an early stage it could. By, say, 800, 'Firanj' still meant the Franks and nobody else. It only became the blanket term for Western Europeans later. Much in the same way many Europeans used 'Tartars' or 'Mongols' to mean any Central Asian, and for much the same reason.

If France and Italy are Muslim, they will have distinct names. al-Andalus Italiyya, Firanj (I'm not sure whether a country name wouldn't need a different ending in arabic - where's Leo when you need him?), probably separate names for Sicily and the Balearics. And then they can go across the Alps and conquer Bawariyya, Turungiyya and Saqsuniyya...

What's the word for 'Land that's too bloody cold and wet to be any good' in Arabic?
 
tetsu-katana said:
In this TL I'm currently in the proccess of writing, France is conquered by Muslims early on, (not the main point of the TL, though) and I need a name for it. What would a Muslim France be called? I heard al-Aquitane somewhere, but I'm not sure. Any suggestions?


That's going to need a far-reaching PoD.

Despite caroligian propaganda, what Charles Martel beat was not an invasion, but a largish raid ( and not the last such ).

In fact, there were muslim establishment in France proper untill the late XIth century OTL.
 

Straha

Banned
western european islam would eventually become a seperate sect that doesn't have the prohibitions agaisnt alcohol,eatign pork an translating the koran into the local languages.
 

Faeelin

Banned
fhaessig said:
That's going to need a far-reaching PoD.

Despite caroligian propaganda, what Charles Martel beat was not an invasion, but a largish raid ( and not the last such ).

In fact, there were muslim establishment in France proper untill the late XIth century OTL.

He faced a rather large raid, IMO. And IIRC, didn't the muslims garrison bordeaux?

Here's an interesting, although likely inaccurate, article: http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/199302/the.arabs.in.occitania.htm
 
The POD is that an invasion force does conquer France. (the rest of Europe doesn't fall, just Spain and France, and parts of Italy.) I think I'll go with Firanja, just because it makes the most sense. Thanks.
 
tetsu-katana said:
The POD is that an invasion force does conquer France. (the rest of Europe doesn't fall, just Spain and France, and parts of Italy.) .

The question is how do the muslims deal with the logistics problem. It was this, nore than frank warriors which stopped them from going over the Pyrenees OTL. Not to mention they had to deal with continuing Christian resistance in Spain.
 

NapoleonXIV

Banned
What logistics? Medieval "armies" lived off the land as I understand it. Even in its early stages its a misconception to think of an Islamic "empire". Arabs who went beyond the Pyrenees, like their Christian counterparts pushing into Austria and Eastern Europe, were probably trying to get away from home as much as bring it with them.
 
NapoleonXIV said:
What logistics? Medieval "armies" lived off the land as I understand it. Even in its early stages its a misconception to think of an Islamic "empire". Arabs who went beyond the Pyrenees, like their Christian counterparts pushing into Austria and Eastern Europe, were probably trying to get away from home as much as bring it with them.

There is still some logistics, especially when dealing with an hostile ( and armed ) countryside. We're not spking about english expedition in the 100-year war. 'medieval' is a concept which covers more than half a milenium. There were a lot of change in military art.

Beside which, the arab attacks into France up to the late IXth century were NOT the work of renegades ( unlike the X-XI th centuries ones ), but still the mainstream Jihad. They had a full friendly base in Spain and didn't want to get cut from it.
 
Straha said:
western european islam would eventually become a seperate sect that doesn't have the prohibitions agaisnt alcohol,eatign pork an translating the koran into the local languages.
I'd not be certain about all but the latter, but I doubt Al-Firanj or Al-Ittalya would be Egypt with cooler weather in any circumstances.

Al Hajj Tariq al-Qina?

HTG
 
fhaessig said:
The question is how do the muslims deal with the logistics problem. It was this, nore than frank warriors which stopped them from going over the Pyrenees OTL. Not to mention they had to deal with continuing Christian resistance in Spain.
Excellent point. I for one have always thought that the Andalucian govorners would have been better off solidifying control of the Pyrrenes(sp?) and breaking the Austrurias in detail.

HTG
 
fhaessig said:
Despite caroligian propaganda, what Charles Martel beat was not an invasion, but a largish raid ( and not the last such ).

Yes, but the attack on Spain started as a raid too...

In the long run, I expect that Islamic Europe might split up. It's too difficult to control all of Europe without modern means.
 
Raids to conquest

A spectacularly successful victory at Tours would encourage more extensive raiding. That could eventually develop into conquest (not unlike what the Vikings pulled off).
 
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