Possible results of German Atomic Research

Let's assume that USA never initiated Manhattan Project due to astronomic costs ( and don't forget it is after "Great Depression" It might happen ) Whole project is overruled by Department of Defense , killed in its birth. Meanwhile in Third Reich nuclear researc about splitting atom is gaining momentum during the beginning of war. Scientists like Einstein , Fermi , Oppenheimer ( maybe he is not he was American born wasn't he ? It is a slim possibility that he would be working for Nazis ) , Fuchs are forced to work on possibilities of creating a weapon by atomic fission. Either they comply and finish the project in time or their families would be in peril. Whole Nazi atomic project is under control of SS and Gruppenfuhrer Reinhardt Heydrich. He has promised magical results to Fuhrer ( he was already fascinated about new and revolutionary weapons like jets and rockets ) about atomic research in short time and he is in rush now. Resources gathered by Nazis are immense ( heavy water from France and Norway , cyclatrone from Paris , nuclear material from Ukranie etc ) and huge underground research complexes were built by Todt Organization and now being run by Ministry of Armaments under Albert Speer.

Under these conditions was it possible for Nazis to create one or several nuclear weapons before it was too late for them ? And also imagine they have also created a long range intercontineal missile prototype with that. Nothing could stop them then.

Well, Nazis and Einstein doesn't work as he's a Swiss citizen. Fermi fled Italy - ok maybe you could gett him to be forced to work for the Axis, that after all was what he was afraid of

Grey Wolf said:

Well, Nazis and Einstein doesn't work as he's a Swiss citizen. Fermi fled Italy - ok maybe you could gett him to be forced to work for the Axis, that after all was what he was afraid of

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You also can't get away from the fact that many leading theoretical physicists working the the field of general relativity and nuclear science were Jewish. Even if they wanted to help the fatherland build a super bomb, the Nazis' wouldn't have them. Their skins on lampshades, maybe, but not them. Even with some good "aryans" in the field, Nazi racial mysticism did not let them to take a "Jewish science" like atomic research seriously as a war-winning weapon. Which is the main reason the German bomb program stagnated, not Norwegian terrorists - oops I meant partisans - helping the British blow up heavy water plants.

My guess is that if Eisntein and co. do not get Roosevelt's or Churchill's ear their best bet is Stalin or Japan - and I doubt they'd want to help those people either for obvious reasons. We just have a war which lasts till 1946-7 and kills a lot more people.

But, if...and...if...and if Germany gets the bomb first they win the war and don't waste any tears on cities full of dead brits, ivans, and amis.

There is a theory that Heisenberg knew how to build one but did not want the Nazis to have the atomic bomb.

This theory says that he deliberately led the Nazi scientific effort down dead ends

As for Jewish science, it should be noted that Himmler's and Heisenberg's parents were friends, and that Himmler acted at least once to protect Heisenberg and get the SS off his back

Grey Wolf

I Learn something every day. Thank's Wolf.

I was unaware Heisenburg was Jewish although I was vaguely aware of the theory that he deliberately slowed down his research or deliberately went in wrong directions. It is true they were going in the wrong direction.

I was aware that bigwig Nazis, even Hitler, occasionally helped out individual Jews who they had developed some personal relationship with. Hitler on several occasions saved his mother's Jewish doctor from the SS and made sure he eventually emigrated sucessfully out of Austria. I don't like to think about these things because it seems to make thoese bastards almost human.

zoomar said:

I Learn something every day. Thank's Wolf.

I was unaware Heisenburg was Jewish although I was vaguely aware of the theory that he deliberately slowed down his research or deliberately went in wrong directions. It is true they were going in the wrong direction.

I was aware that bigwig Nazis, even Hitler, occasionally helped out individual Jews who they had developed some personal relationship with. Hitler on several occasions saved his mother's Jewish doctor from the SS and made sure he eventually emigrated sucessfully out of Austria. I don't like to think about these things because it seems to make thoese bastards almost human.

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I dont think he was Jewish but I think there was some suspicion one of his grandparents or great-grandparents was and you know what the really fanatical Nazis got like about that. IIRC the main reason the SS went after him was about 'Jewish Science' and how he seemed to be pursuing a degenerate path.

Grey Wolf

Evil Men

zoomar said:

I was aware that bigwig Nazis, even Hitler, occasionally helped out individual Jews who they had developed some personal relationship with. Hitler on several occasions saved his mother's Jewish doctor from the SS and made sure he eventually emigrated sucessfully out of Austria. I don't like to think about these things because it seems to make thoese bastards almost human.

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Remembering that "those bastards" are human is vital--humanity can span the best and worst. If we relegate them to the category of faceless monsters, it becomes far too easy to forget that they aren't just some curse from Hell, but something we (humanity, not any particular group) allowed to happen. Hitler was legally (or at least quasi-legally) elected, and many ordinary people supported at least some of the excesses.
OK, end of speach from soapbox

Some time ago I read a story on the net about the german research. It said that after the german surrender, the top german scientist were taken to a farm in England where they spoke freely without knowing the MI6 was listening. Heisenberger was the most surprised when he knew about Hiroshima. It seems he thought the atomic bomb was actually impossible to make because he made a wrong calculation back in 1941 or before. It has to do with the quantity of uranium needed.
It could be very well that he invented the "I didn't want to do it for Hitler" later in order to get a better post-war position. It seems to me that in the 40's the atomic bomb was just another weapon and any scientist working for his country in times of war would have made it if it could.
Another matter is if Germany, even with the right knowledgement, could have afforded to make the bomb in time.

A couple of points- I think you're barking up the wrong tree when you talk about what would have happened if various scientists had worked for the Nazis. As it was, they had Hahn and Heisenberg for starters. Quite simply, America had the resources to take the gamble that the bomb worked. If it didn't work, then it was a disappointment, not a disaster. Nazi Germany didn't. It was a massive engineering project rather than a piece of basic research.

The theory of Heisenberg and the German scientists' deliberate failure to build an atom bomb. This has always had a touch of "the grapes were sour anyway" and "well, I could if I wanted to." They were interned in Britain when the news came of Hiroshima, their responses were bugged. Heisenberg didn't believe it, said the story was a fabrication and no atom bomb had been used. Hahn took the piss out of him:"At any rate, Heisenberg, you're just second raters and may as well pack up." They discussed how the bomb could have been built. It was obvious to the listeners that they didn't have a clue.

Grey Wolf said:

There is a theory that Heisenberg knew how to build one but did not want the Nazis to have the atomic bomb.
Grey Wolf

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Unfortunately, this theory was presented by Heiseberg himself. Heh. Not *very* reliable source. I think that Prunesquallor is 100% right about "sour grapes".
BTW, I've heard that main mistake of German scientists was using heavy water instead of graphite. But I maybe wrong.

Hmmm, I wonder what would happen to the German atomic program if
a) the Weimar Republic survived, or
b) the Spartacists won after WWI (or a Communist victory of a Weimar civil war.)