Germany Ships Japan Me-262 Tech Early

MerryPrankster · Sep 4, 2004

According to "The History Channel," Germany shipped Japan a dissassembled Me-262, some uranium, and various other things aboard a big submarine just before it fell to the Allies. It was intercepted by Allied anti-sub folks (which is why we know about it).

WI the Germans had transferred the Me-262 technology to the Japanese a few years earlier, and the Japanese began mass-producing it. How would that change the war in the Pacific?

Archangel Michael · Sep 4, 2004

The United States would invest more into their jet fighter program, or might just buy some British Meteor fighters, and build their own.

swamphen · Sep 4, 2004

No way the USAAF buys Meatboxes, they're NIH (Not Invented Here).

Japan actually flew the "Kikka" - which at least in appearance looked very similar to a straight-winged Me 262 - before the end of the war, so if a complete Schwalbe had made it, they might well have had a few operational.

Which begs the question of what would happen, if a Mitsubishi 262-clone intercepted the Enola Gay?

As for a US response, the P-80 programme would be kicked into overdrive, and you might get the P-83 for an escort fighter. (In OTL the -83 was cancelled as there was no longer any need for it.)

Brilliantlight · Sep 4, 2004

swamphen said:
No way the USAAF buys Meatboxes, they're NIH (Not Invented Here).

Japan actually flew the "Kikka" - which at least in appearance looked very similar to a straight-winged Me 262 - before the end of the war, so if a complete Schwalbe had made it, they might well have had a few operational.

Which begs the question of what would happen, if a Mitsubishi 262-clone intercepted the Enola Gay?

As for a US response, the P-80 programme would be kicked into overdrive, and you might get the P-83 for an escort fighter. (In OTL the -83 was cancelled as there was no longer any need for it.)

The US would buy Comets if it got bad enough, but it probably wouldn't. It might have even gotten worse then OTL for the Japanese because of the time and effort to retool everything. Giving up a large number of fighters up for a handful of jets probably wouldn't help Japan. Even if it did it would have taken time and the US would have poured money into R&D for jets.

Karlos · Sep 6, 2004

Could the american (or british) early jets take off from carriers?
If not, the japanese jets could make a difference. I don't know how good they would be against carriers, but if they sink enough of them the american advance might stall. IMHO, the impact of jets could be greater against ships than against thousands of enemy planes as in Europe.

MerryPrankster · Sep 6, 2004

Karlos,

I don't know what armaments the Me-262 carried. They could conceivably be augmented with torpedoes, but that'd take time and resources that the Japanese had little of.

robertp6165 · Sep 6, 2004

swamphen said:
Japan actually flew the "Kikka" - which at least in appearance looked very similar to a straight-winged Me 262 - before the end of the war, so if a complete Schwalbe had made it, they might well have had a few operational.

Which begs the question of what would happen, if a Mitsubishi 262-clone intercepted the Enola Gay?

The answer to that is...NOTHING. The Enola Gay was not intercepted because the Japanese intentionally did not intercept it. They thought it was an American weather plane. It was common practice for lone US bombers to fly over Japanese cities to check wind direction and velocity in preparation for upcoming raids. Since these planes came over regularly and never dropped bombs, the Japanese did not bother intercepting them. The Enola Gay took advantage of this fact and came in alone, and was not intercepted.The fact that the Japanese have an Me262 clone is not going to change this fact.

robertp6165 · Sep 6, 2004

Matt Quinn said:
Karlos,

I don't know what armaments the Me-262 carried. They could conceivably be augmented with torpedoes, but that'd take time and resources that the Japanese had little of.

The Japanese were already designing a jet-powered torpedo bomber. They wouldn't have to use many resources they weren't already using.

swamphen · Sep 6, 2004

Karlos said:
Could the american (or british) early jets take off from carriers?

At the end of the war, the Ryan FR-1 Fireball (mixed-propulsion) and McDonnell FH-1 Phantom (all-jet) were ready for deployment and working up, respectivly. The D.H. Vampire wouldn't be too hard to turn into a carrier bird (as it was in OTL).

zoomar · Sep 7, 2004

I have the following observations in this regard:

(1) The notion that the Germans failed to produce Me-262 fighters in late 1943 or early 1944 only because of Hitler's insistence they be changed to bombers is a myth. Problems with productionizing the Jumo 004 turbojets to a sufficient state of reliability would have kept the 262 out of substantial use by Germany until late 1944 anyway. To imagine that Japan, with a much less sophisticated engine industry, could have turned the 004 or a domestic type into a reliable powerplant before the end came is unrealistic in the extreme.

(2) All early jets were incapable of long ranges and had far too long takeoff and landing runs to be carrier fighters (which is why initial US plans revolved around mixed-powerplant planes like the Fireball). By early 1946, the McDonnel fighter (I thought it called Banshee but I could be wrong) and Vampire would be available for carrier use. I wonder what value a jet torpedo bomber would have as torpedos have to be released at fairly slow speeds anyway.

(3) Even if the Japanese had hundreds of Me262's they would have made little difference. The B-29 could operate at altitudes difficult even for 262s, and by the late war P-51's would be operating in Japanese skies. Something tells me they might have wasted them as super fast kamakazi planes, since any thought of turning the war around short of a full US invasion was out the window.

(4) IF the Japanese did get effective jets into the air in 1944, Hell yes the USA would buy Meteors and possibly seek license development of the Vampire as well until P-80's came available. The US happily used Spits, Beaufighters, and Mosquitos when US-built planes were unavailable, so I don't know why they would ignore a proven and operational British jet if they needed it immediately.

(5) Bottom line. To have Japan field large numbers of Jet fighters I believe you'd have to have a POD which delays the initiation of the serious US bombing campaign and lengthens the Pacific War into 1946-47 (perhaps a Japanese victory at Leyte, Okinawa, or Iwo Jima). Then again, there is the Bomb. If nukes are ready in 1945 the war ends pretty soon thereafter anyway.

DuQuense · Sep 7, 2004

iirc- the US had a Test Jet Fighter flying late 42, but problems keep the jets out of action. If Germany or Japan had a earlier jet plane the US would have thrown more resources, not just money, but material,& Manhours, into the jet program.

The US also would have been Quite capable of accepting a slightly lesser quality. So what if 1/2 of 1% conk out on landing, Whe have plenty more pilots.

Brilliantlight · Sep 7, 2004

DuQuense said:
iirc- the US had a Test Jet Fighter flying late 42, but problems keep the jets out of action. If Germany or Japan had a earlier jet plane the US would have thrown more resources, not just money, but material,& Manhours, into the jet program.

The US also would have been Quite capable of accepting a slightly lesser quality. So what if 1/2 of 1% conk out on landing, Whe have plenty more pilots.

I think it is rather doubtful that the US would use a jet that is much worse then what it could buy in England. As noted before it already used Spitfires earlier.

zoomar · Sep 7, 2004

DuQuense said:
iirc- the US had a Test Jet Fighter flying late 42, but problems keep the jets out of action. If Germany or Japan had a earlier jet plane the US would have thrown more resources, not just money, but material,& Manhours, into the jet program.

The US also would have been Quite capable of accepting a slightly lesser quality. So what if 1/2 of 1% conk out on landing, Whe have plenty more pilots.

"Problems" being that P-47s and P-51s could fly circles around it..."it" being the Bell-59 Airacomet. In 1942-43, the US was highly dependent on British jet experience, so if a real need to speed up the introduction of jets occurred, the US would focus on proven British designs. If anything, this might even slightly retard the introduction of domestically-designed planes like the P-80.

DuQuense · Sep 7, 2004

The US also would have been Quite capable of accepting a slightly lesser quality. So what if 1/2 of 1% conk out on landing, Whe have plenty more pilots.

I think it is rather doubtful that the US would use a jet that is much worse then what it could buy in England. As noted before it already used Spitfires earlier.

Wheither the US licenced british Jets, or speed up it own- the fact that the Allies knew that the Axis was having problem with their program, allowed the Allies to keep the devolopment/testing phase going longer. my point was that- If the German/Japanese had better sucess, the Allies would have adopted a --Good enuff for rite now- we will have better in 6 months anyway--atitude. Then thrown whatever resource were needed to make it so.

Brilliantlight · Sep 7, 2004

DuQuense said:
Wheither the US licenced british Jets, or speed up it own- the fact that the Allies knew that the Axis was having problem with their program, allowed the Allies to keep the devolopment/testing phase going longer. my point was that- If the German/Japanese had better sucess, the Allies would have adopted a --Good enuff for rite now- we will have better in 6 months anyway--atitude. Then thrown whatever resource were needed to make it so.

OK, that makes sense.

zoomar · Sep 7, 2004

Brilliantlight said:
OK, that makes sense.

Yes, it does, but I still suspect more effort would also go into improved piston-engined designs such as the Republic P-72 and high performance variants of the P-51, Grumman Bearcat, and Corsair. Jets and rocket powered interceptors fit right into Germany's (and Japan's) needs in 1944 when they were fighting a defensive war with minimal need for long range intruders. The US and UK, on the other hand, needed long-range escort fighters, carrier planes, and strategic bombers, which in the technology of the mid 1940's could only be piston engined Plus, the performance edge provided by Me262s or He162s was not so much these planes couldn't be easily countered by outnumbering them with P-51s. While no doubt the allies would accelerate the development of jets, I doubt they would press marginal designs like the P-59 into service early. They would wait until they had access to second-generation jets which better met their strategic needs