US takes Canada
- Thread starter tom
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Xen
Banned
There was a discussion on this at one point on the old board. Something about a US-Canada free trade agreement went sour, if it hadn't then Canada might have joined the US.
After war of 1812 though, the US best chance was for a war, when I do some WWI scenarios I have the US fighting the British in Canada. Though the UK usually prevails ultimatly in the war, they lose Canada to the US. Its too many miles of ocean to cross with US submarines patrolling and sinking ships. Eventually the bills add up, and Britain cant afford to continue the fight. For the US its less expensive to get the troops there, just a simple ride on a train and a march to the front. With Air power just being developed, the trains wont have as hard of a time as the ships. Not to mention with the industry for the US being right there they can get more planes in the sky then the British or Canadians could dream of. World War I would be the US's last real chance to take Canada by force.
Now most Americans will only take Canada if Canada wants to join, seeing how that isnt likely to happen anytime soon, except for a few provinces in the west that seem like they wont mind, Canada wont join the US.
After war of 1812 though, the US best chance was for a war, when I do some WWI scenarios I have the US fighting the British in Canada. Though the UK usually prevails ultimatly in the war, they lose Canada to the US. Its too many miles of ocean to cross with US submarines patrolling and sinking ships. Eventually the bills add up, and Britain cant afford to continue the fight. For the US its less expensive to get the troops there, just a simple ride on a train and a march to the front. With Air power just being developed, the trains wont have as hard of a time as the ships. Not to mention with the industry for the US being right there they can get more planes in the sky then the British or Canadians could dream of. World War I would be the US's last real chance to take Canada by force.
Now most Americans will only take Canada if Canada wants to join, seeing how that isnt likely to happen anytime soon, except for a few provinces in the west that seem like they wont mind, Canada wont join the US.
Xen
Banned
Actually I think when (not if) Quebec secedes from Canada, the western provinces won't be thrilled at the prospect of Ontario having a larger population, and thus more influence then them. With Quebec gone its going to be a quagmire north of the border, many things are going to have to change, and unless the remaining provinces can agree to a boundry change, Canada won't last long. Ontario could go off on its own and be a somewhat successful nation. West Canada will have a harder time making it and could become US states. New Foundland will likely become a Republic, the Maritimes will probably form their own nation, I couldnt see them remaining loyal to Ontario, and its not likely theyd join the US.
What if, following the French and Indian War, Britain had traded the frozen tundra of Canada for the sugar islands of the Caribbean? Then, once Napoleon rolls along, French Canada, with its tiny population, could be taken by America.
Or Perhaps the Quasi-War becomes a true war and Alexander Hamilton takes Canada in the 1800s.
Or Perhaps the Quasi-War becomes a true war and Alexander Hamilton takes Canada in the 1800s.
Xen
Banned
Norman said:
Thats why in my timeline the US Army is busy with Canada after it annexes it. You have some areas that take well to the American takeover. Most of the population at first supports the Canadian Liberation Army as it starts off fighting US troops. However when the US begins to colonize Canada a little and some time passes, the support for the CLA begins to drop. Americans begin to take Canadian daughters as their brides and Canadians begin to take American daughters as theirs. When the depression hits the CLA begins to target the American settlers, sometimes killing their fellow Canadians who are now married to the American's. The CLA is criminalized by the majority of loyal Canadians who dont appreciate their targeting civilians and the CLA all but dies.
It gets a boost again in the 1960s making Canada to the US what Northern Ireland is to the UK, only bigger. I even used some of the CLA's tactics as the same of Quebec Nationalists in the late 60s and 1970s. The timeline which is incomplete goes up to 2004 when the US still has the occaisonal clash with the CLA. However most Canadians view themselves as Canadian Americans. They are still proud Canadian's, but they are proud American's as well. Fewer still support Canadian independence after nearly a century.
Borrowing an idea from a Cussler novel, what if Britain decided to up and sell Canada to the US? Come up with a reason why Britain would be hard up for cash, and it's a possibility... Canada was thinly populated back in those days....
David Howery said:
All you need is for things to go badly for Britain in the war with Napoleon. Then, instead of Louisiana on the block, it's Canada. Britain is embroiled with France for another 5-10 years and can't defend Canada. France has a lousy navy, so they can't effectively protect Louisiana. The Europeans spend just enough time mauling each other that the US gets everything either by arms or through negotiation and purchase.
wow... the US gets Canada and Louisiana in the space of a few short years? There'd be so much land available, half of Europe could immigrate to the US 
Whoa old topic revived!
But taking any British West Indian island in 1812 is patently ludicrous, even if America had surprising naval victories in the war. Your best bet is Bermuda and the Bahamas revolting with the mainland way back in the ARW, and the navy kept them from doing so even then.
It seems like every 1812 timeline involves America taking over Canada. I just wanted something different for a change, like Jamaica.
I don't much care for the cold.
I don't much care for the cold.
Even if the United States were successful in its aims during the War of 1812, I doubt its occupation of Canada would be anything more than a temporary affair. Outside a vocal minority, the idea was rather unpopular as Canadians were perceived as unable and otherwise unwilling to embrace the Republican values of the United States. Hence, the initial intent of planners in Washington was that Canada was to be used as a bargaining chip at the negotiating table in return for Britain agreeing to end its harassment of American shipping (which essentially became a moot point with the repeal of the Orders in Council and the end of the Napoleonic Wars). So unless a very radical portion of the Western lobby succeeds in swaying the opinions of Congress and Britain is otherwise unable to take her possessions back by force, 1812 is probably out of the cards.
I would say, therefore, that America's best chance in taking Canada lie during the Revolution and even then it's a long shot. Other possibilities include either the Caroline Affair or the Aroostook War escalating into some kind of wider conflict or presumably in the aftermath of a showdown following the Trent Affair.
I would say, therefore, that America's best chance in taking Canada lie during the Revolution and even then it's a long shot. Other possibilities include either the Caroline Affair or the Aroostook War escalating into some kind of wider conflict or presumably in the aftermath of a showdown following the Trent Affair.
Canada, until the 1870's was the Area around the great lakes and the St Lawrence River, so an American victory in 1812 would not give them all of present day Canada
Okay, as much as I'm all about the Stars and Stripes triumphing over the evil redcoats... it wasn't meant to be in 1812.
Let's pull out all the stops and say the initial invasion was a complete and total success and Quebec, Montreal and Toron-- I mean York(please don't slay me Zyz!), are all taken.
Come 1814 after Napoleon is done, the US is probably going to be dealing with a lot more than Robert Ross and Pakenham's hit and run campagns.
OTL, we were basiclly a mosquito on the backside of the British lion... not worth getting excited about, especially since it's still licking it's wounds from beating the French lion. If we were to take Canada, suddenly the wounded lion has to take notice... it's not a mosquito... it's an American jackal, trying to steal the lion's dinner, and it most be slain.
Basiclly that means the Iron Duke would be coming to the New World with a lot of men.
Of course when the Hundred Days start up, things would get very, very interesting with Wellington otherwise indisposed.
That's a good idea for a TL.
Let's pull out all the stops and say the initial invasion was a complete and total success and Quebec, Montreal and Toron-- I mean York(please don't slay me Zyz!
), are all taken.Come 1814 after Napoleon is done, the US is probably going to be dealing with a lot more than Robert Ross and Pakenham's hit and run campagns.
OTL, we were basiclly a mosquito on the backside of the British lion... not worth getting excited about, especially since it's still licking it's wounds from beating the French lion. If we were to take Canada, suddenly the wounded lion has to take notice... it's not a mosquito... it's an American jackal, trying to steal the lion's dinner, and it most be slain.
Basiclly that means the Iron Duke would be coming to the New World with a lot of men.
Of course when the Hundred Days start up, things would get very, very interesting with Wellington otherwise indisposed.
That's a good idea for a TL.
Under the circumstances, the Quasi-War almost definately becomes The Franco-American War and yes, Canada falls.
In Lower Canada, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, definately. Those territories would be little more than a barganing chip as the cultures there probably were unwilling to embrace Republican values.
Upper Canada in 1812, on the other hand, had about as many residents who identified themselves as Americans as not, so Upper Canada could actually be a viable concession. Also, the Americans could demand that Britain cede it's claim to the Oregon (which if we're talking about modern Canada includes British Columbia) which is iffy.
Burning York wasn't exactly the best way to endear themselves to the locals, so I'd say it would require better conduct on the part of American troops in Upper Canada to make it viable. That and better leadership that could have won at Lundy's Lane, Queenston Heights, etc...
But if they pulled it off...
...Could they possibly purchase Ruppert's Land from the Hudson Bay Company?
If they could do that, eventually Britain would cede it's claim to the Oregon. British North America would be seperated from the Oregon by an expanse of land that's basically the whole of Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchawan and Alberta. What's the point of maintaining the claim under those circumstances?
Exactly.
A change of tactics a little better planning and an alternate route into Canada by the Arnold Expedition and the odds become shorter actually. Iffy, but not as improbable as some think.
Another possibility is "54/40 or Fight!" actually results in a full blown war over the Oregon, but those also present an opening for Manifest Destiny to head north.
Because... Britian was a French ally in 1799?
I don't think the US would want Quebec, and I don't think they could take Nova Scotia. (NB... just maybe.) The Americans didn't even have a claim to Oregon in 1812, nor could any plausible American victory in Canada compel the Brits to give theirs up.
They were actually reasonably nice to the civilians early on ("Inhabitants of Canada..." and all that) since they expected them to flock to the American colours en masse. By the time they sacked York in 1814 it was clear to all parties that the degree of niceness with which the American Army treated the Canadians was pretty much irrelevant.
Why would the Company sell to them? (EDIT: After an 1812 victory, OK, maybe. But not apropos of nothing.)
BC was far, far closer to Bombay than it was to Halifax in the early 19th C. The ownership of the interior changes little.
Yeah - but while Montreal + Quebec City does more-or-less = Quebec, it certainly doesn't = Halifax.
In theory, yes, but in practice it's more likely to present an opening for the Royal Navy to head south. In 1844 America will lose.