Iberia

Isabella of Austurias for those of you that don't know was the first daughter of Isabella of Castile and Ferdinand of
Aragon. In OTL she married the King of Portugal (Alfonso) in 1490 and Alfonso would die in little over a year (some
taxing marriage that!) at the age of around 16. She would later move on to marry Manuel I (called "the Fortunate") who
became king of Portugal as well. The marriage would be in 1497. Ten months later, /she/ died.

Manuel would later go on to inaugurate the so-called 'Golden Age' of Portuguese history. Among the things he did was
the sponsoring the expedition of Vasco da Gama; the voyage of Pedro Alvares Cabral, on which Cabral reached Brazil;
the exploration of Gaspar Corte-Real of the coasts of Labrador and Newfoundland; and the expedition of Afonso
de Albuquerque, who established the Portuguese empire in the Far East.

He would also end up marrying Isabella's youngest sister, Mary, (Maria?) who was 18 at the time of their marriage
in 1500. She would die in 1517 after having many children (10!).

As we all know, Juana and her husband, Phillip I of Habsburg, inherited Castile. Philip's death is supposed to have driven
Juana over the edge into insanity. However, her extreme jealousy (though not altogether unjustified) and her husband's extreme
philandering might have help. Because she was the oldest, she inherited Castile and her mighty son (Charles) inherited
all of the Habsburg and Spanish realms. That forever entangled Spain with the fate of Germany.

Now, the what-if. If we grant Isabella of Asturias a long life (or at least as long as her second husband's), we have a rather
interesting situation. Presumably Isabella will be as fertile as her younger sisters and produce heirs for Manuel. The really
interesting part is that we have Isabella being the first in line when her mother dies for Castile and then later on the remainder of the Spanish domains when Ferdinand passes away including Naples, Sicily, and Sardinia.

The fascinating end result is that when Manuel and Isabella get offed by the plague in 1521, their heir - *Juan - inherits
peacefully(!!!) all of the Iberian Pennisula and then some. The Pennisula is unified ~75 years earlier. Further more, there
is /no/ inheritable Habsburg connection here to entangle Spain with. It may crop up earlier, but for the time being, that disaster can
be avoided (no Netherlands to get bogged down in).

One of the other knockon effects might be that we see a unified Iberia /permanently/. I think that we will see Iberian involvement
in the Italian Wars no matter what: their claims are no less pressing still and the French still want Naples. However, a lot of treasure
never gets burned up in the Netherlands. All the Iberians passionately share the idea of pushing the Reconquista into North Africa.
With only Italy as the side show ATL, and the combined economic might in terms of money from trade and precious metals from the Americas, we might just see them pull it off.

Turf wars between the Castilian and Portugese factions ought to be fascinating. The Castilians largely kept the Aragonese (?) and
Catalans from participating in the conquest of the Americas. Somehow I doubt that this'd be possible to do to the Portugese...

So do we enter the modern era with the sun never setting on the Iberian Empire? Perhaps an Iberian North Africa stretching from Tunis to
El Aaiun? ? ?Or do the Castialians get squeezed out by the Portugese in the Alantic, & the Catilians in the Med. Or is there a chance that a Unified Iberia would push the Reconquestia., and never go exploring down the Africian Coast. If Iberia focuses on north Africa, ?Who would sail down the coast & when?

:confused:
 
In fact they had a real heir: Miguel. Isabel died after giving birth to this child, his spanish grandparents took care of this child. He was jured heir to the thrones of Castille, Aragon and Portugal. Unfortunatelly he died at the age of two.

Portuguese and castillians were eager to a dinastic unification. And there would have been nor many problems with their ultramarine empires: there were almost none. However, I would think that maybe castillians would have opted to maintain the exclusive over the Americas, the portuguese over India and Atlantic Africa and aragonese over the mediterranean.

Probably they would have opted to a joint expansion in northern Africa and they would have been less involved in Europe. Forget the Netherlands, the italian wars north to Naples, and probably the religion wars. However they would be facing the Ottoman empire.

Another interesting possibility is that maybe the incoming american gold and silver could have been used more inteligently: banking to lend the rest of european crowns...

One more thing, probably Françoise I would have become German Emperor... Uh! France + Empire = flemish rebels + religion wars + english = ¿?
 
The Spanish throne has to balance the power of the various main language groups. Spanish (and Catalan), Portuguese (and Galician), Basque, Sicilian, Sardinian, Italian, and whatever other odds and sods they come up with. Talk about herding cats...
 
The problems in those years were not so important as today. Castillians and basques considered themselves as ethnically the same, in fact the first political entities to use spanish as official language were the Basques lordships and most of the castillian ministers and secretarians of the court were in fact basques; Galicians did not think either as a separate nationality; even navarre and aragonese people spoke spanish and not basque or catalan; the most differenciated groups were catalans and portuguese, and even these two groups considered themselves as spanish. Yes spanish, portuguese were enraged when the catholing kings Isabel and Fernando named their united kingdom Spain, a name that was thought to name the whole peninsula.

Of course there was some mistrust between portuguese and castillians (the first being traditional allies of England and the second of France) and between aragonese and castillians (for a matter of preeminence), but in those years there was a feeling of belonging to the same nationality Hispania.

The politics of Isabel was also clear on that point once the union with Aragon was accomplised, she tried to do the same with Portugal and three of her sons and daughters married portuguese princesses or princes. Not to mention that her mother was portuguese and she spoke fluently portuguese.

The only way of overcoming it would have been setting the court (capital) in Lisbon and giving the catalan merchants the posibility of trading with the new world. If we consider that Prince Miguel grew in the court of Isabel and Fernando until the first died and then was sent to complete his training in Portugal...
 
This ATL presents a first interesting point of divergence:

Who will become the next German Emperor? As Charles of Habsburg does not have the Castillian gold to support him, the best candidates will be François I and Henry VIII...
 
1498 The Infant Miguel is born, first son of Isabel de Trastámara, heir to the throne of Aragon and Castile, and Manuel "the fortunate" king of Portugal. The mother dies a few days later.
1500 POD: The Infant Miguel recovers from a fever in Grenade. He is accepted as heir by the Courts of Portugal, Castile and Aragon.
1503 Victories of Gonzalo de Cordoba in Cerignola and Garigliano over the French. The Kingdom of Naples is annexed to Aragon.
1504 Isabel I of Castile dies.
1510 The Spanish troops suffer a defeat in Djerba (Tunis). However the king of Alger pays tribute as vassal of Fernando of Aragon.
1512 Navarre is annexed by Castile.
1515 Battle of Marignano, François I of France takes Milan.
1517 Fernando of Aragon dies. Miguel is crowned as Rex Hispaniorum.
Martin Luther publishes the 95 thesis.
1519 François I, Charles of Habsburg and Frederick of Saxony fight for the title of Holy Roman Emperor. Charles has the support of Henry VIII of England, Miguel I of Hispania and the Pope that allows the Habsburg candidate to rise to the imperial throne.
1521 A French army enters Flanders in a surprise attack while another army attacks Northern Catalonia and Navarre. Charles V, Miguel I, Henry VIII and the Pope create the Holy League against France.
The French troops take Besançon, Brussels, Calais and Perpiñan. While besieging Luxemburg, Antwep, Estrasburg, Dunkirk, Pamplona and Gerona.
1522 Spanish troops defeat the French in Pamplona and Gerona entering the Cerdaña. An English army is sent to help Charles in Flanders where the imperial troops are unable to take back the French tide.
Cortés defeats and conquests the Aztec Empire.
1525 French troops retire from Flanders while a Hispanic army takes Toulouse and the imperials siege Milan.
The peace of Cambray is signed between France, the Empire, England, the Holy See and Hispania. The French king will leave all the cities taken in Flanders and the French Compté, but will have back all the cities taken by Hispanic forces in the south and retains Milan. Henry VIII recovers Calais and gets some islands in the Channel.
1527 A Hispanic fleet takes Tunis, Alger and Oran, from these bases all the corsair ports in the Berber coast will be wiped out in a few months. Miguel I plans to establish there the Moorish population of the peninsula.
1528 The heir of Miguel I is born in Lisbon where the permanent royal Court has been established. This was a concession to Portugal, Castile obtained for Seville the right of trading in the West Indies, in the East Indies and in the Mediterranean, Aragon obtained for Zaragoza see of the Courts of all the Hispanic kingdoms (where they met twice per year under the presidency of the King).
1532 Vienna is besieged by the Turks, Charles V, asks Henry VIII and Miguel I for help. The Hispanic king sends a small force of veterans of the wars in Northern Africa that contribute decisively to the Turkish defeat. In Flanders an Anglo Flemish force repels a French invasion force.
1533 Henry VIII divorces Catalina of Aragon. The Pope excommunicates Henry who decides to retreat from Flanders allowing the French to occupy the western part.
1534 Turkish forces press Hispanic positions in Northern Africa. Miguel I sends reinforcements in order to recover the initiative. In a huge battle his forces defeat and utterly destroy an Ottoman army in Morocco, allowing the occupation of all the territories from the Riff Mountains to the sea.
Italian architects are called to build new fortifications along the new defensive line.
The Emperor Charles requests for help in order to fight the French but he receives only financial support as most of his non-defensive forces have been displaced to Morocco. There, the siege of Fez starts.
Charles uses the Hispanic help to raise a German army with whom he defeats an Anglo-French force in Maastricht forcing the Peace of Brussels in which the Empire cedes the Artois to France and England.
1535 Pizarro conquests the Incan Empire.
The alliance with France is not well understood by the English people, forcing Henry to break it searching an alliance with the protestant princes in Germany.
Charles of Habsburg is enraged raises an army in Bohemia and attacks the English positions in the Artois. A Flemish ambassador asks for naval help to Miguel I, who sends a small fleet that sacks some small populations in the south of England. Henry VIII sends an English army to Saxony where it joins the forces of Frederick in order to support his rebellion against the Emperor.
Hispanic forces take control of Aden and the mouth of the Persian Gulf. A permanent Colony is settled in South Africa.
1536 After two years Miguel I enters Fez where the main mosque is consecrated as cathedral to the Holy Virgin. Unfortunately his army is exhausted and is unable to advance further to the south.
The situation for the Ottomans is not better: an ottoman army sieges unsuccessfully Tunis and a huge fleet sent to occupy Malta is wiped out by a storm.
By the end of the year Miguel I signs a three year truce with the ottoman Sultan.
 
Iberia Disnatic Union

The problem with this is that altough the Castilians always wished to unify the Iberian Peninsula under their rule, the other cultural groups never accepted that lightly to say the least. The Catalunians, the Galizians, the Basques were not able to escape the centralizing force of Madrid. The only people who escaped the Catalunians desire to Rule over the Iberian Peninsula were the Portuguese.Except for a brief period of sixty years when the crowns of Portugal and Spain were inited under the Filipinan dinasty. However after sixty years the Portuguese rebelled and obtained their freedom once more. At the same time the Catalunians also tried it, but were not so lucky.

For those of you who do not know the history of Western Europe in detail, Portugal is the European country with the oldest unchanged established borders. The border with Spain as been the same for nearly 8 centuries. And during the time of the Spanish domination, the Portuguese and Spanish Kigdoms were not formaly united. The crowns remained separated and the Filipes were crowned in both countries, with two different public administrations, armies, etc.
 
That is not totally true. The basques did not even consider separation, that is a really new idea (XIX century), most of the castillian ministers and secretaries were basques. Even the most of the linguistic characteristics of the spanish (castillian) come from the basque language. Aragonese (not only catalans), leonese (not only galicians) were not eager to be under castillian rule but felt that they belonged to a unity called Hispania. In fact XV century portuguese felt the same, and when Ferdinand and Isabel called their new state Spain, king Alphonso of Portugal was enraged as they took a name that he felt was also his: Spain - Hispania. Portuguese did not like to be under a castillian ruler, but infant Miguel was more portuguese than anything: two of his grandparents were portuguese (and his other grandmother, Isabel, was half portuguese). Not to mention that he was in fact accepted by the people of Castille, Aragon and Portugal.
Many castillian writers of those years wrote that they preferred a portuguese king "that at least was spanish and spoke a peninsular language (portuguese)" than having a french king (Charles of Habsburg).
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
Regarding the Basques, they had their autonomy and ancient rights, but under Isabella II these were eroded, hence the Basques giving massive support for the Carlists who stood for traditional values, including the restitution of these priveleges

Grey Wolf
 
In fact it was the other way round. The carlist wars were very complex and in their origin had nothing to do with basques:
Ferdinand VII was going to die without a male heir, just Isabel II. The more traditional groups in Spain supported his brother Carlos who was really, really conservative (absolute monarchy, tradition, more power for the church...). At the death of the king the country was divided into Traditionalists (or Carlists) and Liberals (that went for Isabel II). The division was not clear but roughly the carlist candidate was supported in Navarre, the rural parts of the Basque Country (the big cities went for the liberals), some mountanious parts of Aragon (Aragon, Catalonia and Valencia) and Andalucia.
The carlists lost the war and Isabel II was crowned, she did not anything against the basques as the big basque cities supported her.
However a guy called Sabino Arana started to speak about the basque nationalism and how everything started with that war... but it had nothing to do with it. And regarding the ancient rights, they kept most of them during Isabel II reign.
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
Hmmm, you can see why sometimes I hate history :mad:

I do all my research and it comes up with that, and its quite possibly wrong as you say, so why bloody bother I sometimes wonder

You get to the point where you feel that nobody knows anything anymore and nobody can know anything, and its all just opinion

And well, as has been recently proven here quite frequently, my opinion is pretty crap too

Grey Wolf
going back to bed
 
I do not hate it because of that. You find something about history, you dig and dig, learn more and end out with something different.

I have read a lot about this subject and talked to people in the basque country about it because I come from a region very near to it (in fact we were included in Arana's Greater Euskadi), and I have found out that maybe the picture is not as we have been told these years.
 
I agree.. up to a point

Condottiero said:
That is not totally true. The basques did not even consider separation, that is a really new idea (XIX century), most of the castillian ministers and secretaries were basques. Even the most of the linguistic characteristics of the spanish (castillian) come from the basque language. Aragonese (not only catalans), leonese (not only galicians) were not eager to be under castillian rule but felt that they belonged to a unity called Hispania. In fact XV century portuguese felt the same, and when Ferdinand and Isabel called their new state Spain, king Alphonso of Portugal was enraged as they took a name that he felt was also his: Spain - Hispania. Portuguese did not like to be under a castillian ruler, but infant Miguel was more portuguese than anything: two of his grandparents were portuguese (and his other grandmother, Isabel, was half portuguese). Not to mention that he was in fact accepted by the people of Castille, Aragon and Portugal.
Many castillian writers of those years wrote that they preferred a portuguese king "that at least was spanish and spoke a peninsular language (portuguese)" than having a french king (Charles of Habsburg).


Ok, I see you are well versed in the Iberian history. I'm not all that familiarized with the Spanish internal history but I know rather well the portuguese one (after ist's my country). The Portuguese history has been basically (to be rather simplistic) the history of the portuguese resistance of the Castillian centarlizationtendency of the Iberian Peninsula. Even the great portuguese naval achievements were a consequence of this resistance. When the souther part of the country (the Algarve) was conquered, Portugal had only two fronters: north and east with Castillian dominated Spain and West and South to the Atlantic Ocean. The search for new territories for expansion, markets for commerce and sources of raw materials had just one logical exit: the ocean. And we must not forget the very foundation of the Kingdom of Portugal was based in the issurection against the growing influence of the Galician nobility over the Portucalense Duchy nobility (headed by our 1st King Afonso Henriques). I think it's safe to say that of all the national groups within the Iberian Peninsula the only ones that for 8 centuries maintained a constant resistance to the "Castillanization" of the Peninsule were the Portuguese. Neverthless, the other cultural groups (Galicians, Basques, Catalunian) have always maintained a very important cultural and national identity, that from the mid XIXth century as grown decade by decade.

The basques are thinking of declaring themselfs an independent state with the status of free association with Spain. In Barcelona the Catalunian Nationalist Partys grow in influence and demands (we have even seen a representative Catalunian football team in action against other national teams). In Galicia the local nationalist movements have been setady in power for years (There are even some fringe movements that advocate a split from Spain to join Portugal - because of the cultural proximity).
 
...but there are also some other groups that claim that the new standard galician language is too close to the portuguese! :)

It is true that for demografic reasons castillians of the XV-XVII centuries tended to think that they should be "the head of Hispania". And it is funny that the first ones to think so were the leonese kings and emperors who thought themselves as the true heirs of the visigothic kingdom and that thinking so forced the portuguese and the castillians to seek independency. Later on castillian kings assumed that way of thinking.

Concerning the possibility of having the two crowns united I think things were rather different in the XVI century, as portuguese and "spanish" (I mean castillian and aragonese) were closer. Of course there was that feeling of resistance, but you cannot forget that during the castillian civil conflict between the followers of Isabel de Trastámara and Juana "la beltraneja", the portuguese monarch took side with the second one. The reasons? There was a pact that she (Juana) would marry the portuguese heir, so that the two kingdoms would be united. Moreover, after Juana's defeat the portuguese king tried to obtain the nulity of the marriage of Isabel and Fernando offering a double marriage between Isabel and himself! And a marriage between his heir and Juana.
Not to mention that Isabel's mother was portuguese and she married his two oldest sons with portuguese princes...
 
1540 The truce with the ottomans ends and the hispanic and the turkish fleet meet again in Rhodes in another stalemate. Miguel decides to increase his naval power.
1545 Badly pressed by french in Flanders, and by english and saxons in Germany Charles V decides to convert to Lutheranism. His son Philip remains catholic.
Frederick of Saxony vow loyalty to Charles and joins in his fight against the french in Flanders.
1547 François I dies in Rambouillet. His son Henry II is the new king of France. His agents contact Philip of Habsburg in Vienna.
That very same year Henry VIII dies and Edward VI is crowned king of England. And Mauritius of Saxony is named elector of Saxony.
1549 Philip rebels against his father. Civil war erupts in the Empire. Philip has the support of the patrimonial lands of the Habsburg in Austria, the catholic part of Flanders and some electorates in southern Germany, plus the international support of the Pope, France and Spain (who only offers finantial support). Charles leads a coalition of German Luteran princes (mainly from northern Germany), the calvinist part of Flanders and the support of the English King.
1551 Miguel I dies in Seville. His son Miguel II is accepted as King Hispaniorum by the parliaments of Portugal, Castille and Aragon.
In Germany the Catholic and Lutheran forces clash is a series of inconclusive battles.
French and Venetian forces defeat a mercenary swiss army that, serving Charles V, has occupied Milan. Seeking to destroy a traditional rival Venetian forces occupy and sack Genoa. Thousands of genoese refugees flee to Hispania, settling in Barcelone, Seville and Lisbon. In a few years they will integrate themselves totally in the Hispanic economy, increasing the trade with hispanic colonies in America, Africa and Asia.
Although it is one of the few countries not ravaged by the war, the population in Hispania starts to decrease, due to migrations to the colonies and the new territories in conquered in North Africa. Miguel II decides to promote the Saint James road peregrination in order to attract refugees from Flanders, France and Germany that would repopulate the lands in inner Hispania.
1553 Battle of Jülich, in which the lutheran forces are utterly destroyed. Maurice of Saxony dies in Battle. Fortunately for the protestant cause, Edward VI lands with a huge army in Saxony. He is appointed Elector of Saxony.
Charles V dies in Bremen and the Imperial Throne is vacant again.
 

Valamyr

Banned
Interesting. Without the Spanish/Austrian united Habsurgs, both the Netherlands and the austrian lands in northern italy (Milano), would stay in Austria's hands instead of passing to Spain.

This would certainly change a few things! Could Austria, a land power without a land border to the Netherlands, keep its claim on it for any length of time? Who would it go to?
 
On the subject of emigration I doubt there will be as much as you are predicting. Generally emigration to colonies did not make much of an impact on the home nation's population. Since the Spanish and Portuguese were among the least common settlers of the colonies I'm not sure where you are coming from.

About the Genoans: I get the sense you are shooting for a super-Spain with stuff like this - am I right?
 
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