Language WI - Liguistic Purification

The Favorite Lost Cause Thread made me think about the Turkish Language Reform, and what would happen if something similar happened to English.

In a nutshell, Ottoman was a different language than Turkish, and was spoken by the ruling class, mostly in urban centers and especially in Istanbul. It had a very rich vocabularly, most of which was Arabic and Persian, retaining many Turkish common words and grammar, but also incorporating Persian and Arabic grammatical constructs. Neologisms were created using Arabic and Persian roots, as English does with Greek and Latin.

Mustafa Kemal, wanting the rulers and ruled to speak the same language, initiated a reform to to create "Ozturkce", translatable into the Orwellian "PureTurkish", stripping the language of its Persian and Arabic elements, and creating new words where needed. This eliminated most of the vocabulary, and replaced it with ugly neologisms created mostly by amateurs, savaging the language.

What if this happend in England? For instance, what if a proto-nationalist regime took over, and in reaction against Catholicism, stripped English of all it's Latin and Greek-derived vocabulary?

As an example of PurEnglish, I have translated a randomly selected sentence from one of Zoomar's posts, italicizing all foreign words:

I would imagine a regime which had all of the totalitarian and genocidal aspects of Nazi Germany would be even worse if it were also characterized by a rigid economic/social caste system keeping the vast majority of the population in abject poverty (which the "socialist" part of National Socialism did not) .

This might become, removing foreign words and coining replacements where necessary using Germanic-sounding endings:

I would dream a herrschaft which had all of the all-rulish and folkmurdering sides of Nazi Deutschland would be even worse if it were also shown by a not-shiftingish geldish/folkish folkrank auftragschaft keeping mostest of the Folk in all not-haveness (which the "Folkish" of Folkreichish All-same-sharingness did not).

That took me about an hour to do, BTW. That approximates what 'PureTurkish' sounds like to anyone educated in the early 1950s and earlier.

This doesn't even address giving up the Latin script (for runes?). Would this mean no real English Literature? Would French become the international language? If so would French begin to replace English again?

Here's Gibbon's famous first sentence:

IN the second century of the Christian Æra, the empire of Rome comprehended the fairest part of the earth, and the most civilized portion of mankind.

In the hundredyear two of the Christish age, the overkingdom of Rome held the fairest piece of the earth, and the most well-bred piece of mankind.

Not quite the same, is it?
 
This is common theme of romantic nationalists the world over. I think the Nazi's supported this kind of thing. Stalin certainly did, the only consequence in modern Russian being the word samolyot (self-fly) for airplane (the same word I am told is used in the translation of 1001 Nights as the word for flying carpet).

"piece" is latinate..
 
Most Nazis actually didn't care much - the big anti-French movement in German dictionaries was in the early 19th century.

However, I could just see something like this happen. not to the same degree (that kind of brutality requires a general sense of all borders shifting, like you have in the twentieth century after 1914. I don't think it'll work in calmer, saner times)

Attempts if this kind were made at various times in many languages. If a purist 'folkspeech' group established a body akin to the Academie Francaise in Britain, things could get ugly. Maybe in the 1870s, in reaction to "unbridled immigration of inferior specimens of the Mediterranean and Slav deluging our cities!"? You could have naming drives, like some overzealous French officials carried out in Brittany, and school curricula (sorry, childermoot learningburdens) requiring the teaching of New Anglish
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
Why, the result would not be unlike Poul Anderson's Uncleftish Beholding, which was a "translation" of an article on Atomic Theory, that made full use of calques to replace all non-Germanic loanwords. When you read it, it resembles English superficially (as it doesn't violate any of the phonetic constraints of English, and everything is so familiar) but is nearly meaningless.

I suspect that language purists would probably maintain the Latin alphabet, although they could do worse than adopt the Shavian alphabet, which was specifically designed to render English phonetically.

Such a move would probably be disasterous for the sciences in any Anglophone country that adopted it. I could see it (perhaps) happening in a Fascist Britain, but the Americans would probably sooner adopt the metric system (and I'm not holding my breath). It couldn't happen in a bilingual Canada, but might result from a split between Western Canada and Quebec.

World English would probably continue to be the languages of the sciences; I don't see French or any other language moving in on its territory any time soon, even if the British abandoned it. On the whole, it would be disasterous domestically but unlikely to have much of an international effect. The loss of the English homeland to linguistic philistines might result in the international adoption of a simplified jargon, such as Ogden's Basic English. Of course, there are plenty of local English varieties, pidgins, and creoles, such as Indian English, Singlish, or Tok Pisin, which might develop more fully on their own.
 
mishery said:
"piece" is latinate..

I used "piece" because although it is Latinate, it is vulgar Latin and thought to have a Celtic origin. I guess to be safe maybe "share" would be better.

By the way, there HAVE been sporadic attempts to purify English; two neologisms that took hold are "folklore" and "foreword", both of which are of very recent coinage.

Interestingly, "refurbish" died out in the 19th c, but the US ambassador to Britain used it in 1969 in a televised conversation with the Queen, and the public liked it, so it has risen from the dead.
 
Leo Caesius said:
I suspect that language purists would probably maintain the Latin alphabet, although they could do worse than adopt the Shavian alphabet, which was specifically designed to render English phonetically.

I don't think they would use the Shavian alphabet as the current orthography encodes a large amount of the history of the language. I could even see some backward steps e.g. replacing k's with c's to make the language look more like old English.
 
"Saxonism is a name for the attempt to raise the proportion borne by the originally and etymologically English words in our speech to those that come from alien sources. The Saxonist forms new derivatives from English words to displace established words of similar meaning but Latin descent; revives obsolete or archaic English words for the same purpose; allows the genealogy of words to decide for him which is the better of two synonyms."

- from Fowler's "Modern English Usage"
 
mishery said:
This is common theme of romantic nationalists the world over. I think the Nazi's supported this kind of thing. Stalin certainly did, the only consequence in modern Russian being the word samolyot (self-fly) for airplane (the same word I am told is used in the translation of 1001 Nights as the word for flying carpet).

Well... not exactly. In every language from time to time appears translation or new world for new thing. "Samolot" (self-fly) or "samochod" (self-walker or self-mover") in Polish, or my favourite - invented and popularized by a newspaper "podomka" ("the thing which yopu use in your house) instead of "szlafrok" (german schlaf rock, or "sleeping-gown"). German "fahrrad" (bicycle) is - IIRC - also original name.
And now, leading nation in invention of new original words for well-known thing are French. I think you know what "l'ordinateur" is, but what does acronyms SIDA or OTAN mean?


Going back to Stalin. "The Greatest Linguist" (it was on his by-names) in 50. wrote a book about linguistic, where he stated that "language is not part of base or superstructure, but is independent from them". In other worlds he said, that Russian language shouldn't be change in spite changing of political system.

And, John, shouldn word "Nazi" also be changed? It's Nazionalsozialist, German world but definitely of Roman origin ;)
 
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Re Russian "samolyot", the same has happened in India with the word "vimana". Originally it was Sanskrit vi- = "apart" and mâna = "having been measured" and meant land measured out and set apart for religious use. Then it meant "temple" and then "god's house". Then it meant Râvana's flying palsce in the Râmâyana. From that it meant fictional flying machines in later native Indian stories. And now in India it means ordinary real aircraft. But many in the West still treat the word as meaning a sort of Indian UFO.
 
AIDS and NATO

That's easy, Otis- AIDS and NATO respectively. Crap, I should be able to cite exactly what these acronyms are in French, but it's been awhile since i've employed my francais, so I'm a bit rusty.

You other guys have some very interesting speculations on how English may have developed had the original Teutonic-based tongue been maintained to a greater extent...
 
Anthony Appleyard said:
Re Russian "samolyot", the same has happened in India with the word "vimana". Originally it was Sanskrit vi- = "apart" and mâna = "having been measured" and meant land measured out and set apart for religious use. Then it meant "temple" and then "god's house". Then it meant Râvana's flying palsce in the Râmâyana. From that it meant fictional flying machines in later native Indian stories. And now in India it means ordinary real aircraft. But many in the West still treat the word as meaning a sort of Indian UFO.

In Turkish, the neologisms were so ugly and awkward, that people began inventing parodical words. For instance, the new official word for "triangle" translates roughly as "three-thingy". Not surprisingly, "pentagon" is "five-thingy", and polygon "many-thingie".

So, someone coined "Self-propulsional carry-thing" for "auto" and "sky-guestish dame" for "stewardess", both of which the common people began using, because the parody terms were no worse than the real neologisms, so the Language Commission ended up having to spend resources on fighting fake words.

Mustafa Kemal himself, finding that he could no longer speak the language without stumbling over note cards, abandoned PureTurkish and reverted to Ottoman except in technical language, which really did need reforming.

The excesses of language reform threw him into his first deep depression, and on his deathbed, his last words were said to be "For pity's sake, the language!" Which was alternatively interpreted by pro and anti partisans of language reform. The pro side won.
 
Otis Tarda said:
Well... not exactly. In every language from time to time appears translation or new world for new thing. "Samolot" (self-fly)

Ah, but there already existed a word "aeroplan" or such like, samolyot was a calque replacement for this loan word.

I don't think Stalin practiced what he preached. The soviets gave Russian loads of new words, especially acronyms and blends and certain words e.g. terms of address were frowned upon, e.g. gospodin.

Most movements like that of the Saxonists are doomed to failure or at least only limited success. Look at the Academie Francais, if I were a French tax payer I would want them shut down and the money spent on hospitals or such like.
 
mishery said:
Ah, but there already existed a word "aeroplan" or such like, samolyot was a calque replacement for this loan word.

I don't think Stalin practiced what he preached. The soviets gave Russian loads of new words, especially acronyms and blends and certain words e.g. terms of address were frowned upon, e.g. gospodin.

Acronyms are - IRRC - usual thing in Russian language. So, obviously, new appeared, as new institution had risen. And yes, some adresses were changed. Tavarishtsh (comrade) instead of "gospodin" (sir? yeoman? - hard to exactly translate), mainly because they were too "feudal". The same story was in Poland where word "Pan" ("man", "sir" but also "master" or "lord") was replaced with "obywatel" ("citizen") or "towarzysz" (thovasheesh "comrade").

But, on the other hand, the words weren't changed just because they were of foreign origin. Polish "samochod" and "samolot" appeared before WWII - so reds cant be blamed for that.
 
Otis Tarda said:
Acronyms are - IRRC - usual thing in Russian language. So, obviously, new appeared, as new institution had risen. And yes, some adresses were changed. Tavarishtsh (comrade) instead of "gospodin" (sir? yeoman? - hard to exactly translate), mainly because they were too "feudal". The same story was in Poland where word "Pan" ("man", "sir" but also "master" or "lord") was replaced with "obywatel" ("citizen") or "towarzysz" (thovasheesh "comrade").

But, on the other hand, the words weren't changed just because they were of foreign origin. Polish "samochod" and "samolot" appeared before WWII - so reds cant be blamed for that.

When was "Pan" replaced? Everybody called everybody Pan or Pani when I lived there; do you mean it was changed during the Communist era and then changed back?

Interesting how tenacious forms of address can be. The Turks tried to get rid of "Bey" and "Hanim" (Sir and Madam - well, close, anyway), but they won't go away.
 
Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
When was "Pan" replaced? Everybody called everybody Pan or Pani when I lived there; do you mean it was changed during the Communist era and then changed back?

It was still in popular use, although communist tried to convince us that "all sirs stayed in London after war". "Comrade" was obligtory in speaks between members of Party, an "citizen" was used in army. But, acctually nobody cared about it, even high state officers treated it as a kind of ritual.

There is story about one of party secretaries, that was asked about something: "what do you think about it, sir?"
"I'm not "sir", I'm a comrade!"
"So, what do you think about it, comrade?"
"For God's sake, I don't know"

Probaly worst dameges to language were made by bureaucracy, that has really bad style of writing. They tried to introduce "official" names for things - like: tie - "man's hang" (imagine, what was association). Even now there are such horrors as "low-gabarited dwelling-wastes" instead of "rubbish" :))

Still it's just marigin, but it let mi imagine "reforms" in Turkish which were you talking about.
 
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Triune Caliphate

I did not realize that Ottoman was so distinct from Turkish. If the Turks had not gotten involved in WWI, they might have been able to reestablish control over the gulf Arab states, occupied Russian Turkestan during the civil war, annexed Iran or at least the oil and arab areas, and then used the oil to pay for industrialization. Instead of having three languages, they could just have taught everyone the three vocabularies in school.
If you used Turkish words with Arab grammar, does it make sense? Can you understand the sentence? What about Persian? The three languages are Turkic, Aryan, and Semitic. They are completely different in structure. Can you use them?
If the oil had been discovered in Iraq before 1900 it might have crashed the price of oil before the Texas oil fields were discovered and the Gulf oil might have had a defacto monopoly and been able to charge higher prices than in OTL.
 
Ruly English

If we wanted to increase the literacy rate for children we could go phonetic very easily with computers to do search and replace. The government could just specify that all government documents would be phonetic.
We could write a browser that would have a phonetic preference and that would automatically transliterate text into phonetic form, perhaps as a Linux browser function.
I learned my language from reading. I pronounce many words phonetically, even though I am a native english speaker.
 
wkwillis said:
If we wanted to increase the literacy rate for children we could go phonetic very easily with computers to do search and replace. The government could just specify that all government documents would be phonetic.
We could write a browser that would have a phonetic preference and that would automatically transliterate text into phonetic form, perhaps as a Linux browser function.
I learned my language from reading. I pronounce many words phonetically, even though I am a native english speaker.

But then you face the problem of which phonetic. Would we end up with different orthographies for all the different dialects of English? Take the word daughter, the first vowel is different in English English and American English (Scottish English has the same vowel as American English). The t is realised as a flap in American English and often as a glottal stop in British English. The final r is realised to greater or lesser degrees in US dialects, not at all in Southern British English and fully in Scottish English. So if you come up with a common phonetic alphabet for English, it will be phonetic for only a small subset of the speakers of English.
 
Melvin Loh said:
That's easy, Otis- AIDS and NATO respectively. Crap, I should be able to cite exactly what these acronyms are in French, but it's been awhile since i've employed my francais, so I'm a bit rusty.

Being in my schoolmaster´s mood, i´m willing to help out :)
SIDA: Syndrome d´immunodéficience acquise
OTAN: Organisation du Traité d´l Atlantique Nord

Direct translations, as far as I can see.
 
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