Longer Lasting Seleucids

Get the Seleucid Empire to last at least to the 2nd century AD. They should hold at least Mesopotomia and all points east that they normally held.

A good starting point might be, IMO, if Antiochus III the Great focused his attentions on Parthia, conquering them completely, while staying out of Greece, thus depriving Rome of an excuse to start going after them.
 
DominusNovus said:
Get the Seleucid Empire to last at least to the 2nd century AD. They should hold at least Mesopotomia and all points east that they normally held.

A good starting point might be, IMO, if Antiochus III the Great focused his attentions on Parthia, conquering them completely, while staying out of Greece, thus depriving Rome of an excuse to start going after them.

Even after Magnesia they might have been in with a chance:

The last chapter, 'Results', discusses the effects of the Roman victory at Magnesia and the subsequent Treaty of Apameia on the later development of the Seleukid Empire. G. concludes that the consequences of Magnesia and Apameia for the Seleukid Empire have been much overestimated. Antiochos still commanded the enormous resources of capital and manpower of his Asian empire east of the Tauros Mountains. This conclusion is at variance with traditional views but consistent with the current belief that the defeat was not a fatal disaster from which the Seleukid Empire could not recover, let alone the cause of the empire's ultimate collapse. It is now more often supposed that the main cause for Seleukid decline -- which started more than one generation after Antiochos the Great -- was internal dynastic strife (instead of the other way round), and that the loss of Iran to the Parthians, which was a direct result of internecine conflict within the Seleukid family, and the subsequent Parthian incursions into Babylonia were probably more lethal injuries than the Roman victory in the west.[[2]] G.'s study of the war supports this view, which has in the recent past been defended most fervently by Ame/lie Kuhrt and Susan Sherwin-White.[[3]] G. adds the interesting observation that it was actually a benefit to get rid of Asia Minor with its innumerable intricate and awkward
problems, its cities, its kingdoms, its petty disputes and restless populations -- although the Seleukids themselves would not have seen it in such a light (350-1).

This from Rolf Strootman's review of J.D. Grainger, "The Roman War of Antiochos the Great" - not sure where the review originally comes from, but it's reproduced at http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/ancmed/message/39832

So if Antiochos IV hadn't got himself so tied up with Judaea and Egypt, could he have reconquered Parthia? Maybe: even Antiochos VII's campaign in 130 was initially successful, Parthian rules does not appear to have been very securely rooted. And how important is Iran anyway: could the Seleucids have held on to Syria and Mesopotamia even if the Parthians, or somebody else, holds Iran?
 
Eventually you're going to come up against the problem that Hellenistic dynastic states aren't really built to last. They're based on personal loyalties and enforced or voluntary alliance to a charismatic leader. What keeps a Hellenistic prince in power is above all success. The very successful dynasties managed to keep hold of their states even in bad times because of either local dynastic loyalties (Macedon) or a strong sense of territorial and cultural integrity in the core area (Egypt). If you can't get something like this for the Seleucids they are condemned to their usual seesaw pattern for as long as the dynasty lasts.

Assuming Antiochus III really manages to subdue the East (how much do we know about his fabled camopaign? I suspect strongly he spent most of his time extorting tribute and collecting opportunistic promises of fealty rather than establishing real control) that could create a stronger base, but again, how long would it last? His son or grandson, or nephew, or whoever else succeeds him or his successor, is going to prove weak and lose land. Then the next strong Seleucid can reconquer it - or the next weak link break the chain. Mesopotamia isn't Egypt, it will have to deal with invaders on a regular basis. As to Syria, I'm afraid unless we remove Rome that will be conquered. I don't see any Hellenistic power able to withstand Rome in the long run. The best of them had the military oomph (the Macedonian wars were pretty close-run affairs, and Mithridates of Pontos wasn't bad, either), but they didn't have the stamina. It's in the nature of charismatic leadership. The basileus needs to win every battle, the consul just the last one.

As to the Parthians, I get the impression they are more of an opportunistic hellenised dynasty than an 'unstoppable barbarian horde'(tm). Give them Persia, let the Seleucids keep Mesopotamia and we could have a diminished successor kingdom there for a few centuries longer. Not *very* likely (for some reason native dynasties 'gone Greek' seem to be doing better than Macedonian ones in the long run), but possible. Maybe they could play a role similar to Armenia and Adiabene, or the Nabataean kingdoms. I don't think they'll withstand the next invasion when it comes (Sassanids, perhaps, though not having the Arsakids in Mesopotamia may butterfly them away. Hephthalites?)
 
IIRC Morkholm's biography of Antiochos IV speculates that he was trying to reform and strengthen the basis of the Selecuid monarchy: strengthen Hellenised city-state institutions, acclimatise the people to Roman-style glorification of violence (hence the gladiators, not a traditional Greek thing at all, in the army parade at Daphnai), and build up the monarchy as divine as a focus of loyalty. Not sure if he could ever have succeeded.

Whether Rome will eventually conquer Syria or not depends, I suppose, on your idea of the engine of Roman imperialism: defensive, accidental or aggressive. What would stop the Romans ever wanting to come east of the Taurus? An ever-loyal Seleucid ally? A Mithridatic victory?
 
Duncan said:
Whether Rome will eventually conquer Syria or not depends, I suppose, on your idea of the engine of Roman imperialism: defensive, accidental or aggressive. What would stop the Romans ever wanting to come east of the Taurus? An ever-loyal Seleucid ally? A Mithridatic victory?

I read the Roman excpansion driven by a mixture of ambition and fear. Ambition, by individuals and cliques of people whose political and economic future is tied up with military victory and who hope to find or make a conflict. A pretty much unadulterated example of this is Caesar in Gaul, but I am fairly convinced that Lucullus and even the Scipiones already had that element in them. Fear, in that Rome's government seems to have been extremely worried about revolt and unrest (this a tradition that continues into the Empire, witness among other things the way the riot in Ephesus is put down in the Acts of the Apostles, or the way Dion Chysostom harps on the subject). Thus a powerful and inherently unstable monarchy on its frontiers had little chance of surviving in the long run. Every time a king dies (or it is seen to it that he does - we are talking Hellenism here) the succession is open, and every time Rome will have a say. Factions in Rome come into play, and sooner or later a Seleucid will find himself backed by (and beholden to) a losing group. Also, the riches of the kingdom are bound to tempt Roman commanders in the region, and once the Legions have rampaged through Antioch, why leave? Even if all of this can be averted, the first time a weak or badly positioned seleucid sees the need to show his subject he is prepared to stand up to Rome could well be the last. the political culture of Hellenism and that of Rome are different to the point of incompatibility. Even loyal, happy client kingdoms ended up inside the Empire after a few generations, not because they actually revolted but because the Romans found them unstable.

As to a Mithridatic victory - that might do it, but how likely is that? How do you stop an army for which eventual victory is a natural law? Mithridates ran an incredibly successful uprising, but we shouldn't forget Rome was at the same time indulging in a destructive civil war. I don't think it can be done.
 
After Alexander's death in 323 BCE, the unity of the Macedonian empire soon crumbled. The satraps appointed by Alexander to govern the provinces fought for dominance, with Seleucus Nicator, a Macedonian noble, emerging victorious in the eastern half of the empire in 312 BCE. Seleucus seized Babylonia from Alexander's successor, Antigonus I, and over the next fifty years the Seleucids expanded their realm west to Syria, and north to Thrace, and east to the Indus River valley. This was the Seleucid heyday, and it was short-lived; by the mid-third century the empire had begun to lose control over its most far-flung territories. Seleucus lived to see the forfeiture of the Indus region to Mauryan control (it is said he traded the Indus Valley for five hundred elephants), and by around 250 BCE the Greco-Macedonian colony of Bactria in northern Afghanistan had formed an independent kingdom. By approximately 190 BCE the Seleucid Empire consisted of Syria, Mesopotamia and most of the Iranian plateau.

The Seleucid aristocracy maintained its Greco-Macedonian heritage throughout their period of political dominance in the Middle East. Greek became the language of commerce among traders who made traveled between the Mauryan Empire, the oasis cities of Central Asian such as of Merv and Bactria, and the Seleucid urban centers. Yet though Seleucus I and his successors actively promoted Greek culture and language, local populations resisted their efforts, and maintained their own customs. At times, Seleucid attempts to force local communities into adopting Greek cultural heritage met with disaster, as demonstrated by the Maccabean uprising in 165 BCE, inspired by the raising of a statue of Zeus in a Jerusalem temple. When Greco-Macedonian immigration began to slow down by the mid-second century BCE, local languages and customs once again became dominant, reversing the progress made by the Seleucid rulers to Hellenize Asia.

Strategic control of the mountain passes and roads connecting the West with the East allowed the Seleucids to dominate overland trade between the Mediterranean and Asia. Economic ties with Central Asia kingdoms and Mauryan India were developed, and urban regions on either end of the Seleucid Empire became important centers for trade and cultural exchange. Proximity to the Central Asia also had its disadvantages, for the provinces in the northeast occasionally suffered raids by nomadic horseman. In response, Antiochus I built a wall nearly one hundred miles in length to protect the city of Merv, a solution strongly reminiscent of China's Great Wall, constructed for identical purposes.

In 190 BCE the Seleucids had met their first military defeat at the hands of the Romans, allowing Rome to seize of much of Anatolia. The Maccabean uprising in 164 BCE resulted in the loss of Judea in Palestine, while most of the Empire's eastern provinces had reorganized themselves into independent kingdoms by the year 141 BCE. Over the next few decades the Seleucids (now more of a kingdom than an empire) managed to shore up control of the last of their territories and held them until the year 64 BCE, when they were absorbed by the Roman Empire.


WI: Selecus didn't trade The Indus Valley region, He would probably benifet from an much closer trade network ?
 
Last edited:
Phaeton said:
WI: Selecus didn't trade The Indus Valley region, He would probably benifet from an much closer trade network ?

Well, he didn't have a lot of choice - the Maurya were already in control of most of the area that Seleukos ceded. See http://hometown.aol.co.uk/bobbbennett/seleucus.htm

And without the 500 elephants, he might have lost out in the West to Antigonos:

...I have recalled that the first Seleucus ceded all his provinces west of Qandahar and south of the Hindu Kush to Chandragupta Maurya in exchange for 500 of the Indian emperor’s elephants; and the price in terms of ceded territory turned out not to be excessive from Seleucus’s point of view. Those 500 elephants were trumps. They won him his victory over his rival Antigonus ‘One-Eye.’ In fact, they won him his empire.
- Toynbee, quoted in http://depts.washington.edu/uwch/silkroad/texts/hhshu/notes8.html
 
Top