During the 1930's, an alliance between Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany was anything but certain. The Nazis had numerous reasons to dislike the Italians, such as their membership in the 'most degenerate' European race, as well as grumblings about Italian control of some Austrian territory. Italy likewise distrusted the Nazis for their bizarre racial science and continental interests. Oddly enough, the only one really interested in an alliance before the war in Ethiopia was Hitler himself. Suppose that he did not have this interest, and Italy never joined the Axis. What would happen then?
No Rome-Berlin Axis
- Thread starter Adam Parsons
- Start date
Brilliantlight
Banned
Alasdair Czyrnyj said:
The Germans would have had to shift divisions south to keep an eye on the Italians. This could very likely delay the victory in Poland and France.
David S Poepoe
Banned
No use of the phrase "Axis of Evil". Tho of course there could be a Berlin-Tokyo Axis. No boardgame titled "Axis & Allies"
Susano said:
You're probably thinking of greece, Hitler invaded Yogoslavia in a fit of temper that had nothing to do with Italy
no Rommel and Afrika Korps in Libya.... no German attacks into the Balkans? (although he still might need to extend his front against Russia)... the invasion of Russia starts sooner? No British diversions into Greece, and the Italians in N. Africa are crushed sooner...
well, Mussolini still wants his N. African empire and will still attack Greece, probably.... would that bring the Brits in against him?
Brilliantlight
Banned
David Howery said:
Why? Germany is in somewhat worse shape due to the fact that they would have to have troops in the south and Italy invaded Greece largely because Mussolini wanted to show up Hitler by a succesful invasion on his own.
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could be... still, whether they were formally allied or not, might not Mussolini invade Greece anyway? Hitler's ally or not, he still wasn't a pleasant person, and he did want a new 'Roman empire' under his control. He might not get into any scraps with Britain, if he leaves well enough alone in N. Africa. Wouldn't he still be likely to invade Greece though, as he would still be jealous of Hitler's conquests?
Brilliantlight
Banned
David Howery said:
Maybe but less likely. It would jepordize his colonies in N Africa without any German troops to back it up.
If there was no Rome-Berlin Axis, I foresee a German-Italian War. Remember, the Italians put forces on the border with Austria during Hitler's first attempt to annex it. Also, Italy controls South Tyrol, which has a large German populace. The Axis alliance made it so Hitler didn't do to Italy what he did to Czechoslovakia.
Hmm...how do you think the Powers will react to Hitler attacking a rival fascist regime? Will they try to stop it, do a Munich, or gleefully arm both sides? How will this affect later developments (the Polish Corridor)?
Hmm...how do you think the Powers will react to Hitler attacking a rival fascist regime? Will they try to stop it, do a Munich, or gleefully arm both sides? How will this affect later developments (the Polish Corridor)?
why would attacking Greece endanger N. Africa? was Greece part of the alliance with France and Britain?
Actually I think the chance for an Italo-German war in ´34 and perhaps even later was rather good. Dollfuss apparently was a friend of Mussolini's, and Hitler had the man assassinated. Italian troops were rushed to the border and war was emminent, but the situation got defused.
Much of the reason why the Axis was formed was that Hitler and Mussolini seemed to get along fine on a personal level. Today one wonders why...
Without the Axis, I doubt Mussolini would invade Greece. As stated elswhere it was a show to impress Hitler and gain fame and glory in comparison to the Germans...
Considering the lay of the land, the Italians might have kicked the Germans butt if they tried invading Italy up untill, hm, '40 or even '41, I should say.
If the subject interests you, do give my Italia Eterna-TL a look.
Regards and all!
- Bluenote.
Much of the reason why the Axis was formed was that Hitler and Mussolini seemed to get along fine on a personal level. Today one wonders why...
Without the Axis, I doubt Mussolini would invade Greece. As stated elswhere it was a show to impress Hitler and gain fame and glory in comparison to the Germans...
Considering the lay of the land, the Italians might have kicked the Germans butt if they tried invading Italy up untill, hm, '40 or even '41, I should say.
If the subject interests you, do give my Italia Eterna-TL a look.
Regards and all!
- Bluenote.
getting away from Italy for the moment, what would Hitler do in this scenario? Does no Axis agreement mean that Italy and Germany would be hostile, or would the two leaders manage to agree to neutrality? If the former, would Hitler maybe go for a knockout blow on Italy before taking on Poland? If the latter, it seems likely Hitler will still do all of his OTL aggressions... Austria, Czeckoslovakia, Poland, France. Without Mussolini's bungling in the Balkans, though, will Hitler still feel the need to go there? He might still want to increase the frontline against Russia, so Romania might still come under assault....
Well the British and, to some extent, the French were VERY eager to bring Italy into an anti-German alliance as late as 1939 in OTL. Without the good relations between Rome and Berlin there's nothing to offset the natural Italian fears about Hitler's attitude to the Tyrol and I can see Musolini joining up.
ok... sounds like the key to this whole scenario is just what will be the relations between Italy and Germany. Hostile? neutral? loosely allied even if no formal pact? It seems that Hitler wouldn't want to add another enemy to his list, and would go for neutrality at the least... as someone said earlier on here, the two leaders got along well personally.. maybe Hitler could make use of that to secure his southern front from Italy....
Brilliantlight
Banned
David Howery said:
Why take the risk? In this TL the Allies are neutral but more then a bit jumpy. Mussolini would be a complete fool (OK, he was but I don't think to this extent) not to worry about how they would respond to his invasion of Greece.