Crimea Question

From my answer to the 1932 map challange.

1855 Gold Rush, in California. Remember the '55ers

1858 Crimea War, California uses some of it's new wealth the buy Russian Alaska. This influx of Gold is enuff to tip the War in Russia's favor.


?So what whould the results of a Russian Win in the Crimea War be?

Highly doubt any cash influx will hold off Russian defeat. The best thing to consider is that the Tsar would have cash on hand to make the necessary reforms AFTER the war.

Without the threat of bankruptcy the Russians would have been in a slightly better position at the negotiating table, perhaps strong enough to avoid the humiliating disarmament clauses in the Black sea. Removing these terms was teh major preoccupation of Russian diplomacy until it was achieved in 1871.

Even without this obsession, however, it's unlikely that a weakened Russia would have been able to play a much more interventionist role in the diplomacy of teh 1860s.

btw, what delayed teh Crimean war?

The problem with the Crimean War is that it came to an end when Britain and France got fed up with fighting it - it could easily have gone into 1856 if the two main allies had been able to agree on a common aim for the year

One supposes that a Russian win means that the Russian armies in the Crimea are victorious, it is the only measurable place. I'm not sure money would particuarly help, but one could certainly posit a Russian win, an Anglo-French evacuation etc

Grey Wolf

btw, what delayed teh Crimean war?

Click to expand...

I handwaved it so that California would haved time to get the nessacary gold.

Russia has had two Focuses of expansion, South around the Black Sea, & east across Siberia. When ever they had troubles with one, they would turn to the other.

Following their defeat in the Crimea, Russia turned to the Pacific, [those Black Sea forces had to be sent somewhere] expanding their push into Salihakin island. In the 1870's there was almost a war between Russia and Japan over the island. Wiser head prevailed, Japan was just starting to Moderize, and was unable to compete with the Russian Military. Japan agreed to a Co-Dominium with Russia.

In the 1890's Russia managed to push Japan out Completly. This was one of the Causes of the War in 1905, during which Japan regained the South half of the Island.

So lets go with this;

1845 American settlers in Califonia raise the Bear Flag , & declare Independence.

1846 POD Arguements anomg the Settlers delay the request for anexxation by the US. By the time the dust settles, The Republic of California has been established [ there was a remain Independent faction, here they won, Handwave the details,]

1853 A series of irregular Border clashes begin between Turkey & Russia.

oct 1853 Turkey DoWs Russia

Nov 1853 Russian Navy destroys the Turkish Fleet

Jan 1854 Britian & France DoW Russia

april 1854 Russia invests the Fortress of Silistria, [Bulgarian Coast]

june 1854 The Tsar learns that the 50,000 Austrian troops in Transvania are about to enter the war. The Tsar orders a withdraw.

August 1854 Russian troops finish their withdraw, the Austrians Occupy the Coastal areas vacated by the Russians.

Sept 1854 British, French, & Turkish troops begin invasion of the Crimea Peninsula. [March on Sevastopol]

Having decided to make a stand in the Crimea Nickolas II approches the Republic of California, about buying Alaska.

Nov 1854 California buys Alaska, Siege.of Sevastopol begins

Nov 1854 The Tsar uses the Gold from Calif. To purchase supplies from Prussia. [The Prussians agree to this to spite the Austrians] Inculded in the Purchase is an agreement for the Prussians to construct a RR from Keiv to Odessa. The prussians also start a RR from Berlin to St Petersburg, from Berlin to Keiv, & St. Pete to Keiv, thro neither of these have the priority of the Odessa line.

June 1855 The British and French assualt the Redan IOTL due to the lack of supplies and reinforcements this was a British/French victory, with several of the top commanders of the Russians being killed. In ATL due to the supplies arriving from Prussia, over the new RR, the Russians manage to hold.

july 1855 Under pressure from Home the British/French try again. IOTL The Storming of the Malakoff and the British capturing of The Redan ended the Seige. and in Feb 1856 the War ended. IATL The Russians throw the assualt back with heavy loses for the attackers.

Aug 1855 Dispite a almost continueing bombarment by allied seige guns, Due to the Prussian Supplies and the almost completed RR, the Fortifacations at Sevastopol, are actually being improved and extented.

Nov 1855 The Idea of another Winter of Seige is not making for happy campers back in Britian/France

March 1856 A Last Assault attemp by the allies is another diasater.

April 1856 A Cease Fire is Arranged and in

June 1856 the Treaty of Berlin ends the War. Basically everyone returns to the Status Quo of 1853. Except Austria maintains its troops in the Occupied territories.

While it looks like only Austria got any thing out of the War, in Effect Russia Gets a closer relation with Prussia, and a RR south From Russia to the Black Sea. also there is a expanded Russian Military presence, in the Black Sea area.

1860 The RR's from Berlin to Russia, and inside Russia are Completed, this helps pull Russia closer to Europe.

1866 US & Japan sign a friendship Treaty

1869 Butterflies from the defeat in the Crimea, and Russian/Prussian closeness aborts the Franco/Prussian War

1870's Japan continues with it's Colonization of Sahalkin Island, While Russia objects, it is more focused on Europe, and Modernizing it's Black Sea Forces.

1882 Russian Austrian War with it's mordenized Black Sea force Russia manages to dislodge Austria from the Black Sea Coast. Russia occupies The Coastal parts of Romainia, & Bulguria.

1894 Russian-Turkish war

1895 Japanese-Sino War Japan gets Korea, Formosa, Hainadao Island. Due to Russia being occupied with Turkey, There is no Pressure to give up those parts of China, gotten with Korea.

1898 USS Maine sinks in Havana Harbor. US declares war on Spain. Japan uses the freindship treaty, as a excuse to attack, & Occupy the Phillipines.

1905 Austrian-Hungurian War Morphs into the Great War I

Could the Prussians actually have built so much railway mileage so quickly?

I doubt the lines would have been in place in time to make much difference.

and butterfliers can remove the Franco-prussian war, a product of real historical forces, but the purely accidental explosion of the USS Maine still occurs on schedule?

they really are a great means of "managing" a TL, aren't they?

I concur, the Prussians may be great but laying down so much track is crazy? Also so what if they build a railway line between Kiev and Odessa the Crimea and Sevastopol are no where near Odessa! Sevastopol was besieged - nothing in and nothing out. The Allies had complete naval domination of the Calamity Bay.

Ahem. That would be Tsar Nicholas I - not Nicholas II.

Doesn't quite appear that the Russians have won since they have accepted an ante bellum status quo peace. Appears to be much like the War of 1812 its only regarded as a victory by one side, the Americans, who forget what a complete hash and failure it was in total.

What if they sold Alaska a little earlier?

If they sell Alaska a little earlier to fund a railway it might work.

Say that Gold is dicovered around 1848, Gold Rush from 1848 - 52, California becomes world famous for its gold, Russia decides to build Railway earlier, then approaches Prussia, which agrees to start project with 'x' amount down and some ownership.

Russia offers Alaska to California in Spring of 1853, before Conflicts with Turkey heat up.

Crimean War happens, Prussia now is in position of having to support its Russian investment, so that in June of 1854, it offers support when Austria begins to move troops, which causes AUstria from having to fully commit.

Actually, wouldn't the Russian Government contract a Prussian Railway Company to build their railway and not the Prussian Government itself? The Prussian Railway Company would then hire Russian works, which is cheaper than importing Prussian workers to lay track. However, this does just appears a little too little to do anything major. The track is between two points that don't directly link to the front, and the Allies would know about the construction in advance.

I always find it interesting that the Russians Government was willing to sell off such a profitable possession as Alaska. They never seem to have asked the Russian American Company, which operated in Alaska, about how much they were making. Also, given the time, the 1850s, I have my doubts that California would agree to the purchase. It doesn't have the population or ability to protect or exploit such a purchase. By the 1860s or 1870s seems far more plausible.