Deism in the 21st Century

What POD will leave Deism as a major religious and philosohical view in the United States to this day? By major, I mean at least 25% of the population is a Deist.

Deism was a rationalist religious philosophy that flourished in the 17th and 18th centuries, particularly in England. Generally, Deists held that a certain kind of religious knowledge (sometimes called natural religion) is either inherent in each person or accessible through the exercise of reason, but they denied the validity of religious claims based on revelation or on the specific teachings of any church. Deism was also influential in late-18th-century America, where Deistic views were held by Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and George Washington. The most vociferous Deists in America were Ethan Allen and Thomas Paine.

scandal

several "Elmer Gantry" Scandals during the Great Awaking [1730-1750] People are turned off by organized religion, but relilize they need something. so the turn to a personal beleif instead of a external organization

the second great awakening was a more pronounced rise in spiritualism thasn the first so your POD could be used there too....

Deism is a major philosophical and religious view in the USA. Basically, anybody who describes themself as Christian, but then admits to not believing that Jesus is God, is a Deist. That means the 30% of American "catholics" (selfdescribed) are actually Deists, ~40 million people.

Deism was really nothing more than an Enlightenment codeword for Atheism.

Hymie Goldberg said:

Deism is a major philosophical and religious view in the USA. Basically, anybody who describes themself as Christian, but then admits to not believing that Jesus is God, is a Deist. That means the 30% of American "catholics" (selfdescribed) are actually Deists, ~60 million people.

Deism was really nothing more than an Enlightenment codeword for Atheism.

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Deism is not atheism. Atheism denies rationally that a God exists where as American and British Deists believed that a God certainly did exist. A major difference.

It's impossible to be a Catholic and a Deist at the same time. Deists believe that, although a God does exist, that the Bible should be rationalized and Church structure shunned. Catholics have one of the most organanized church hierarchy's in the world and the Pope advocates keeping faith in the Bible itself and not attempting to rationalize it.

Even if 30% of American Catholics were Deists (which they're not), that would only be 24.3 million people (or barely 8% of the American population). Look below for the math.


27% of Americans are Catholics. The American population is 300 million. You say 30% of American Catholics are Deists (which they're not).





8.1% is nowhere near the 25% I asked for.

30% (or close to it, last poll I recall seeing) of American "catholics" do not believe that Jesus is God. That means they aren't really Catholic, nor even Christian. They are, basically, high-church (ritualistic) Unitarians. Unitarians are certainly Deists.

The "catholics" I'm talking about are people who identify themselves as Catholic in polls--not hard numbers from Diocesan rectories which count the number of members of parishes. In polls, 30% of those identifying themselves as Catholic profess to not believe that Jesus is God.

(If my numbers are off, it's because I figured that there are about 240M Christians in the USA, 50% of them "catholic.")

Hymie Goldberg said:

30% (or close to it, last poll I recall seeing) of American "catholics" do not believe that Jesus is God. That means they aren't really Catholic, nor even Christian.

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Christians generally don't believe that Jesus Christ is God, though. He is regarded as the Son of God. A major difference. You don't have to (and most don't) believe that Jesus is God in order to be a Christian.

Hymie Goldberg said:

They are, basically, high-church (ritualistic) Unitarians. Unitarians are certainly Deists.

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No, I think you're missing the whole point of what a Deism is. Unitarianism, despite incorporating some of the views of Deism, is a different thing. Some elements of Deist beliefs have been incorporated into both Unitarianism and Modernism, but neither is Deist. The whole point of Deism is that there isn't a regimented church structure. You practice and believe what you will by rationalizing the Bible. That's what makes you a Deist.

Hymie Goldberg said:

The "catholics" I'm talking about are people who identify themselves as Catholic in polls--not hard numbers from Diocesan rectories which count the number of members of parishes. In polls, 30% of those identifying themselves as Catholic profess to not believe that Jesus is God.

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Only 27% of the American population profess themselves to be Catholics. "30% of that Catholic population does not belive that Jesus is God." What does that have to do with anything? The simple fact that they call themselves Catholics is enough so that they are certainly not Deists.

Hymie Goldberg said:

(If my numbers are off, it's because I figured that there are about 240M Christians in the USA, 50% of them "catholic.")

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You're wrong on both counts. There are 248 million Christians in the US (83% of the population). Out of those 248 million, only 27% of them are Catholic. The US is, and always has been, a predominantly Protestant nation.

Dude. ALL Christians --Catholics, Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, Episcopalians, Presbyterians, Fundamentalists-- believe that Jesus is True God. To argue otherwise is to betray your ignorance of what Christianity is.

The divinity of Christ is a Doctrine of all those churches.

The only "christians" who don't believe that Jesus is God are the ones who don't know anything about the religion they profess to believe.

Even Mormons--who aren't Christian--believe that Jesus is God (actually something like: the God who replaced God the Father and who was, in turn, replaced by God the Spirit).

PS--Unitarians don't have a church structure in the US, far as I know. Unitarian Universalists have a structure that functions mainly as a charity drop.

"Christians traditionally regard Jesus as the incarnate Son of God, and as having been divinely conceived by Mary, the wife of Joseph, a carpenter of Nazareth."

Microsoft® Encarta® Encyclopedia 2003. © 1993-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.


Divinely conceived, yes. But, as I said, Son of God.

Hymie Goldberg said:

Dude. ALL Christians --Catholics, Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, Episcopalians, Presbyterians, Fundamentalists-- believe that Jesus is True God. To argue otherwise is to betray your ignorance of what Christianity is.

The divinity of Christ is a Doctrine of all those churches.

The only "christians" who don't believe that Jesus is God are the ones who don't know anything about the religion they profess to believe.

Even Mormons--who aren't Christian--believe that Jesus is God (actually something like: the God who replaced God the Father and who was, in turn, replaced by God the Spirit).

PS--Unitarians don't have a church structure in the US, far as I know. Unitarian Universalists have a structure that functions mainly as a charity drop.

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Yeah, Encarta is a real good source.

Check the DOCTRINES of every single Christian faith and you will see that they all profess that Jesus is True God.

Or, better yet, ask any Christian.

Hymie Goldberg said:

Yeah, Encarta is a real good source.

Check the DOCTRINES of every single Christian faith and you will see that they all profess that Jesus is True God.

Or, better yet, ask any Christian.

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Yeah, all the anti-Christian propaganda on Encarta is really bothering me these days. *sarcasm*

Goldberg, why the hell would an Encyclopedia print it if it wasn't true? I mean, I could tell you from my own knowledge that Jesus was the Son of God, but if you don't believe a nationally-acreditted encyclopedia, why should you believe me? I guess I can try quoting the Bible:

How about this little gem?

“Christ, the Son of God” (Matthew 26:63)

Now, this is from his own mouth and was, directly, the reason he was crucified. Upon his answer (which was yes), Jesus was condemned to death by the council for blasphemy. Don't believe me? Check your Bible, O faithful God-fearing Christian. A poor Lutheran like me doesn't know anything.

Then again, maybe the Bible is lying to us, too.

If you had paid attention in Sunday School--or whatever Lutherans call it--you'd understand that when Jesus calls himself Son of God, he is saying that he is God.

He calls Himself the Son of David--saying that He is David--the Messiah. That's what it means to call yourself the Son of something.

He also calls Himself the Son of Man. St. Paul explains this in an epistle (Romans or 1 Cor, I think): Jesus is Adam, the New Man, New Flesh, come to rectify Original Sin.

Son of Man = New Adam
Son of David = New David = Messiah = Christ
Son of God = God

The argument was decided in 325AD.

PS--You must be Evangelical Lutheran, right Walt? Missouri Synod Lutherans would know this stuff.

Then, how do you explain the Holy Trinity, consisting of a Father (God), Son (Jesus), and Holy Spirit? If, like you say, Jesus were to actually be God, which I don't believe as I have never been taught that, why would two seperate members of the same trinity in actuality occupy but one position? Plus, neither of us is ever going to "win" this argument, and, thus, it's pointless. Looking around online, I have yet to find one source which supports your theory and many which support mine...

And, yes, it is called Sunday School, and, yes, Evangelical is correct. I don't go more than once a month at most though.

Ask any priest or minister.

The argument was decided in 325 AD--all Christian chruches accept the Council of Nicaea which acknowledged the full divinity of Christ. That's why the Nicene Creed says "God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God, begotten, not made."

The Trinity actually is the Christian God. Its single Nature is made up of three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--all of which are fully God in themselves. The Person of Christ has two distinct Natures: a fully Divine Nature and a fully Human Nature--making Him fully Man and fully God.

I think I can guarantee that any Evangelical Lutheran Minister you ask will say the same thing.


PS--A really quick fix would be to go to Yahoo and log into a Christian chatroom. Ask them if Jesus is God.

"Hymie Goldberg", "Hank Fletcher", etc... you stupid git, did you really think that ridiculous aliases would conceal you? This is the internet, I don't need your name to identify you.

Goodbye.

Ian> dang! that was hank? I never would have guessed... no long anti-Israeli diatribes....

wrong

A Deist beleves in a Supreme being, [the prime cause, great clock maker,ect]. But not in ANY religion. This would include any bible based religion, no matter what church.

So, after that long divergence, which I take it was intended to make me pissed off, does anyone have a POD which makes Deism a major religious and philosohical view in the United States to this day? By major, I mean at least 25% of the population is a Deist.

Deism was a rationalist religious philosophy that flourished in the 17th and 18th centuries, particularly in England. Generally, Deists held that a certain kind of religious knowledge (sometimes called natural religion) is either inherent in each person or accessible through the exercise of reason, but they denied the validity of religious claims based on revelation or on the specific teachings of any church. Deism was also influential in late-18th-century America, where Deistic views were held by Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and George Washington. The most vociferous Deists in America were Ethan Allen and Thomas Paine.


BTW, what was the deal with "Hymie" or "Hank" or whatever he was calling himself?

and the Wrath of God Strikes again

*sacrafices a goat to his graven image of Ian he has set up in the courtyeard*

but seriously maybe the 2nd great awakening is a more focused movement of general social reform so slavery is abolished by 1840 in a gradual process of compensated emancipation,women get the vote in 1880's and the natives are merely scammed out of their land not nearly wiped out like IOTL. Without great ferver to increase fundamentalism, America settles into a deist/unitarian nation. Prohibition is never thought of and America is a more free society without the precedent of governemnt interference in people's beliefs. If theres still a WWI and red scare the right would most likely be an atheist-pagan libertarian style party while the subdued and socially nuetral religious left as the opposition.

Walter_Kaufmann said:

So, after that long divergence, which I take it was intended to make me pissed off, does anyone have a POD which makes Deism a major religious and philosohical view in the United States to this day? By major, I mean at least 25% of the population is a Deist.

Deism was a rationalist religious philosophy that flourished in the 17th and 18th centuries, particularly in England. Generally, Deists held that a certain kind of religious knowledge (sometimes called natural religion) is either inherent in each person or accessible through the exercise of reason, but they denied the validity of religious claims based on revelation or on the specific teachings of any church. Deism was also influential in late-18th-century America, where Deistic views were held by Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and George Washington. The most vociferous Deists in America were Ethan Allen and Thomas Paine.


BTW, what was the deal with "Hymie" or "Hank" or whatever he was calling himself?

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I think the reason for the argument is that 25% Deist is still not really a divergence from OTL. Your argument is based on the idea that Deism denies "the validity of religious claims based on revelation or on the specific teachings of any church." but it doesn't, Deism, as I understand it, didn't deny the validity of anything but argued simply that any such belief is beyond rationalistic proof

The most important consequence of Deistic belief is an attitude of tolerance to all faiths. I know of few faiths in the US that don't place a high value on tolerance, much higher and more prevalent than in Europe.

I may be wrong, but I think you're letting a very vociferous minority color your view of US religion.