what would america be like in a cold war against a rightwing enemy like nazi germany?

what would america be like in a cold war against a rightwing enemy like Nazi germany??

my thoguhts
-a good war that has the same style proceedings like korea(the question is where??)
-a left wing style of McCarthyism with the religious right
-a libertarian counterculture
-an almost libertarian right wing and a more socially nuetral "religious left"
-civil rights movement not needed becasue Eisenhower got them equal rights in the early 50's
-no war on drugs
-a differently named version equal rights amendment in the 50's pushed by president eisenhower
-Fidel castro getting US support and Batista getting nazi support
-a slower but earleir pace to social and sexual revolutions
-the left supports the space program
-an earlier and more well managed
-President Martin Luthor King jr
-Carter in 1980 managing to be a leftwing version of reagan with a leftwing social policy but a hawkish foreign policy
-Carter being ranked as one of the nation's great presidents
-political correctnessappearign in the 50's and dying in the late 60's(its lessening now, it wasway wrose in the 90's)

A European style Socialist Democrat Party (perhaps the Democrats)
The Republicans adopt a Libertarian Platform
The religious right loses influence but is still there
Of course Higher Taxes too

A likely place for the war would be in Yugoslavia, perhaps centered around the Croatian Fascists

I think Roman Catholicism would necessarily be far more liberal if it was not going to be in the Nazi camp and I don't think it would because of how influential US Catholics are on World Catholicism. (Main reason $$$) However, the similarity of Church hierarchy to Nazi Fuhrerprinzip would be an ongoing embarrasment to Rome, which would turn left to get away from this. Church would support abortion rights, liberation theology and general religious leftism. Some main supports of both religious fundamentalism (as positive support) and modern secularism (as something opposed to) would be knocked out.

---political correctnessappearign in the 50's and dying in the late 60's(its lessening now, it wasway wrose in the 90's)---


Political correctness has been defined by the right-wing in the US (like liberal) and thats why its perceived as a bad thing.Whats its really about is trying to understand and address others not like you with respect and dignity.Of course the reason that political correctness is so resisted is that implict in its goal is that it wants to is elevate the downtrodden in society to equal status with those already (and always) in power. Those who are conservative in supporting the status quo ,which just so happens to usually include them on top, are naturally horrified by this notion.So political correctness is a great evil along with affirmative action ,ERA,abortion rights,gay rights etc etc. I really dont think that it follows that the US would have a more leftist political bent if we were confronting a facist power in Europe.Considering the United States long history of racism,anti-Semitism etc etc its equally likely that the US would be brought closer to the facist world-view ( ala Great Britian in HT's worldwar series.) Part of the reason that the United States grudgingly made Civil Rights somewhat of a priority in the OTL was because of the Soviet Union's constant harping about the US hypocrisy in declaring itself land of the free and still brutalising millions of its citizens.I guess its possible where the same thing would happen with a fascist power,but that would depend on how the fascist power played things.If it wanted the US in its camp ideologically it would be less vocal about such hypocrisy.

Michael E Johnson said:

...Considering the United States long history of...anti-Semitism...

Click to expand...

Actually, the United States is and has been one of the LEAST anti-Semitic nations in the western world. Take for example our support of Israel while Europe, almost in its entirety, supports the Palestinians. I challenge you to find me one piece of American history where the Jewish have been treated as badly in America as in Europe.

"I really dont think that it follows that the US would have a more leftist political bent if we were confronting a facist power in Europe.Considering the United States long history of racism,anti-Semitism etc etc its equally likely that the US would be brought closer to the facist world-view ( ala Great Britian in HT's worldwar series.)"

Golly, for the second time today I agree with Michael Johnson!. The OTL Cold War was seen as a conflict between basic systems, yet throughout there were adaptive pressures to push the two systems to be more similar (the reds more open and democratic, the US more welfare-statist). Had the opponent been a super powerful fascist state, contrarian intellegensia in the US arts and media would have seen fascism as the wave of the future. My guess is the US would become more racist, more militaristic, and less democratic.

I believe that if America got into a Cold War with a fascist nation, such as Nazi Germany, I think it's very possible the nation could be slightly more liberal than OTL. Of course, that is only if Nazi racism is extremely rampant, as in Americans knowing more about the Holocaust. There may be some rumors about anti-Semitic persecution, but the Nazis' real evil may not be known for some time behind the "Iron Curtain" that would be Germany, possibly Vichy France, and the other occupied portions of Europe. Really, things could go about the same as OTL's Cold War between the USA and the USSR, except it is very possible hard core right wingers may take the "Nazi" branding the way some liberals were seen as being "Communists" during the Cold War.

One factor in all of this may be the way WWII turns out. Is the Soviet Union destroyed, or severely weakened? Did Imperial Japan collapse to the USA? If so, this means the US may end up supporting Communist, or at least left-wing, governments, against right-wing insurgents resembling the Nazis. The USA will be involved in brushfire wars in Southern Europe and North Africa, as well as the Middle East. The Atlantic will be cluttered with US Navy and German Navy warships watching out for each other. If Britain is still independent and somewhat strong, they'll also get in the fray in the North Atlantic. Lastly, America will be paranoid like OTL, especially thanks to the Nazis early foray into "Wonder Weapons" such as the V-1 and V-2 rockets.

With the wars (WW1 at least), post-millenial Christians will loose influence (as in OTL). Pre-millenial Christians are not likely to agree with destroying the Jews, because they are God's chosen people and Israel will be re-established before Jesus returns (I'm trying to explain their theology, NOT claim ANYTHING about the nation of Israel OTL). Also, as more information comes out about the concentration camps, including the many Christians and others killed in them, Christians are likely to support the US government against the regime.

I think America might be more liberal in some ways, but I think the main focus of the Cold War would be freedom versus totalitarianism, and so similar to OTL.

"been defined by the right-wing in the US (like liberal) and thats why its perceived as a bad thing.Whats its really about is trying to understand and address others not like you with respect and dignity.Of course the reason that political correctness is so resisted is that implict in its goal is that it wants to is elevate the downtrodden in society to equal status with those already (and always) in power"

So attempts to shut down criticism of Jesse Jackson with shouts of "racism" and the Anti-Defamation League's (www.adl.org) criticizing Mel Gibson's Passion by stirring up pogrom fears, and your opening-post rant in "Secular Sensation" about Christianity being racist and anti-science are really an attempt to treat everyone with dignity?

Now, onto the subject...

In OTL, 13 US anti-WWII dissidents were put on trial as "domestic fascists." Some of them WERE actual fascists (one was a leader in the Silver Shirts, a fascist-wannabe movement), while one simply really hated Communism and one was even a Quaker (!). The trial turned into a media circus with "impassioned readings of Mein Kampf and it ended with a mistrial when the judge dropped dead in the middle of it.

Anti-FDR newspapers were also wiretapped and critics of FDR were denounced as either traitors or "dupes" of the Axis.

Read "The New Dealer's War" sometime to see the dark side of FDR's behavior during WWII. And FDR wasn't the most fanatical of the New Dealers...Wallace and Morganthau were fairly wacko.

I'd imagine if we were in a Cold War with Nazi Germany, you might have a leftist version of McCarthyism aimed at isolationists, pro-fascists (hey, McCarthy nailed a few real Communists), and others who oppose New Deal-type gov't (even if the New Deal in its original form was rather corporatist).

I just read American Nightmare: The History of Jim Crow by Jerrold M. Packard and it really made something even more clear about this thread. I think its almost certain that in a Cold War with Nazi Germany-the US would be more right wing-especially in regard to racism. Much of the change that the US made in regards to racism in the US was motivated not only by Soviet charges of hypocrisy in regard to the American bastion of liberty brutalising 10% of it citizens-alot of that criticism came from the UN and European allies.For instance,the main reason that Eisenhower pushed for complete desegregation of Washington DC was becuase of UN delgates from Africa and Asia there being mistreated as if they were American blacks. In a world where there was no UN and the dominate power in Europe was virulently racist- I really think that white racists in the US would have been hard pressed to actually give up the Jim Crow system and their own views. Why would they willingly do it in a more racist -friendly TL when they had to be dragged kicking and screaming in OTL-the kindness of their hearts ?


ps I really highly recommend this book.Based on some of the comments in regard to race I see here it could be informtive to some individuals.

I'm sort of inclined to agree with Michael. Assuming civil rights legislation gets off the ground, I imagine Nazi Germany would be inclined to cause trouble by helping out the more violent segregationists. Assault rifles and grenades delivered to Mississippi by U-boat?

However, if this is discovered, it could be the kiss of death for anti-segregationism. A bunch of SS "volunteers" found at Klan rallies would immediately bring on opprobrium, popular hatred, official action, and what-not, much like what happened to many of the blacklisted people.

Oy vey.

Matt: cribbing from Turtledove? how beneath you....smile...

I suspect that very little would be different, as both Nazi Germany and the USSR were totalitarian regimes with aggressive intent. This was the basis of our quarrel with them, the left/right ideologies might have been fodder for the extremists on both sides, but the character of the debate (read a paper from the 50s, for instance) was classic nationalism, with a bit of pro-liberty thrown in. Perhaps one might even argue that racism (as usual, Michael's fixation...) would be a harder sell, as it would appear to be 'siding with the enemy', and the Nazi form of racism included much of the currrent population of the US as well...

On the matter of political correctness, liberals love to chant the diversity mantra, until it includes diversity of thought and speech, and then those that disagree with the chosen philosophy must sacrifice their diversity. Good manners suggests that one should treat others with courtesy and (if earned) respect, but the current wave of speech codes and censorship in the name of 'what is right' is nothing more than thought control with a friendly face...

"Matt: cribbing from Turtledove? how beneath you....smile..."

What Turtledove book involves Nazis allying with Klan-types? Is it "In the Presence of Mine Enemies" (the new one) or perhaps one of his older works?

We would have supported the good guys, this time.

Revolutions die. Nazi Germany would have calmed down after the original Nazis died off, like Russia and China did.
Nazi Europe would have killed huge numbers of white people in Europe, but many fewer nonwhite people would have died. I assume that they conquered Russia, since if they did not conquer Russia they would not have been able to murder more than a few million people because they would have needed allies. I also assume that we took over the empires of the occupied countries and set them up as more or less democracies like India. If the Nazis took over the third world it would have been very megacidal.

WK,

The Nazis were really evil SOBs. Get them in Africa and you might very well have Draka-land.

What extent of a Nazi victory do they need for us to have a "Cold War" with them? If they bite off only Ukraine, Belarus, and the Baltics, that still leaves a fairly large, powerful, and mightily PO'd Russia that could be a danger to them directly. Now, if they occupied all the way to the Arkangel-Astrakhan Line (like they'd wanted to) and bombed the heck out of a lot of territory East, Russia might be down for a generation or more.

An unsubdued Britain can also bleed them on the peripheries and keep them from expanding beyond Europe, though challenging them on the Continent might be out of their range. The Nazis naval-wise weren't very good (hence no invasion of Britain); however, if Hitler really wants a "round two," the Nazis could theoretically use the resources of occupied Europe to gear up for the "final reunification of the German race" (the Brits being Saxons).

If you want WWIII in a Nazi-victory TL, a German assault on US-allied Britain will do nicely.

However, when do the Nazis start suffering from "imperial overstretch"?

In OTL, they challenged the US and USSR, all while sitting on several countries that disliked being sat on AND putting a lot of resources into exterminating one particular ethnicity (true, they killed others besides Jews, but when did the Nazis deprive the Wehrmacht of needed trains to kill Poles?). That's why they lost.

Now, let's assume the Nazis support fascist regimes a la the Warsaw Pact in Western and Southeastern Europe (Vichy France and the Eastern "Hitler groupies") while indulging in Teutonic Knight fantasies in Ukraine/Belarus/the Baltics. How long can they keep this up before something cracks? Their economy was inefficiently run and eventually a planned economy will break down.

Perhaps the US can help them along by backing anti-Nazi groups in Europe somewhere. The Eastern "lebensraum" would probably be a running sore for decades, esp. if the US occasionally drops goodies off via submarine or U-2.

Or, if you want to parallel OTL a bit, Switzerland can be the Nazis' Afghanistan. It's mountainous, the people are heavily-armed and resistant to central authority. According to Target Switzerland, the Nazis wanted to divide Switzerland among themselves, Vichy France, and Italy. If they tried that, things could get ugly? How could the US and friends supply the Swiss? In OTL Afghanistan, we had a friendly Pakistan to work with.

Matt: Turtledove penned a rather interesting short story called "Must and Shall", the POD of which was Lincoln getting killed at Fort Steadman, replaced by Hamblin (now there is an evil SOB for you...) who pushed the Radical Republican reconstruction line. The south was never reconciled, and even during WWII (the US remained neutral, at least early on) the US was forced to garrison the restive southern non-states. The story dealt with an FBI man hunting down a Nazi arms-smuggling ring in the Nawlins area...

One thing overlooked here is that Hitler had a virulent hatred of the US, second only to that for the USSR. I remember reading a review of Hitler's untitled second book (published recently, although I haven't read it); the quotes in the review show that Hitler regarded the US as a nation of mixed race mongrels... plus, he thought we were lazy dollar-chasing hedonists who would never dare to get into a war. A world where the US and Germany square off in a cold war... seems doubtful the US would have too many Nazi admirers, nowhere near as many as there were US communists in OTL. Stalin and Krushev's rantings about us would be nothing compared to Hitler's. The commies swore that the revolution would overtake all of us, the decadent west would be buried... but they never said they'd enslave us all. Hitler would say just that (well, all of us who weren't pure germanics anyway... how much of the US could claim that in '46?). It's hard to see that many Americans would find this culture attractive (a few would, as there are always a handful of nuts around). Even the hardcore racists in the south might have a hard time with Nazi culture (how many of them would qualify as Germanic?)....

---Perhaps one might even argue that racism (as usual, Michael's fixation...) ----

Why do I feel that this is a redirection? Racism is hardly my fixation-its been AMERICA's fixation from day one-to the benefit of whites at the expense of non-whites. Thats called reality. If I'm fixated with anything-its confronting those that want to deny or soft pedal that reality.

---replaced by Hamblin (now there is an evil SOB for you...) ---

Interesting . I'm curious what do you think about Robert E Lee and Jefferson Davis-you know the 2 actual traitors whos actions caused thousands of lives?

"the 2 actual traitors"

You advocate a one-world government (thus assuming national sovereignty is illegitimate, including the US), so how can you claim Lee and Davis are traitors?

You also claimed that a secessionist black regime in the Deep South would be just what America deserved; surely, if Lee and Davis are traitors, the leaders of that little operation would be traitors as well.

Darn it, how come nobody's really commented on my lengthy commentary on Nazism, imperial overstretch, etc? Everyone's fixating on Turtledove, race relations, etc. The size and power of a victorious Nazi Germany would have all sorts of effects on US politics, but we're all ignoring that.