Lurker's Map Challenge
- Thread starter Hermanubis
- Start date
Hmmm...cannot think of a POD, though I imagine one of the aftereffects would be a German victory in the East during a WWI-like scenairo. Serbia appears to have been annexed by A-H, but A-H has broken apart.
Perhaps the POD is that Italy remains faithful to its German and Austro-Hungarian allies, giving them the victory in WWI?
That wouldn't explain a Macedonia, though. "Macedonian nationalism" is a relatively recent thing, though I think its earliest appearance was during the various Balkan Wars. It didn't get really big until lately, though.
I could be wrong; it's past midnight and it's been over a year since I took the History and Culture of the Balkans class.
That wouldn't explain a Macedonia, though. "Macedonian nationalism" is a relatively recent thing, though I think its earliest appearance was during the various Balkan Wars. It didn't get really big until lately, though.
I could be wrong; it's past midnight and it's been over a year since I took the History and Culture of the Balkans class.
Let me make a guess: Italy was allied to the Central Powers in WW1, and Bulgaria stayed neutral.
When the Russian Revolution came, it infected Austria Hungary too.
Notwithstanding the AH collapse, Italy and Germany won WW1 (without US intervention?). Subsequently Germany put paid to the Russian and AH revolution, and got Austria, Bohemia and other bits and pieces, while Italy got trentino, Istria and Fiume (plus Albania, Corsica and Tunisia).
What surprises me is an independent Algeria peeking from the bottom of the map.
The Ottoman Empire got back Thessalonika, and possibly Macedonia as a protectorate.
Am I close?
When the Russian Revolution came, it infected Austria Hungary too.
Notwithstanding the AH collapse, Italy and Germany won WW1 (without US intervention?). Subsequently Germany put paid to the Russian and AH revolution, and got Austria, Bohemia and other bits and pieces, while Italy got trentino, Istria and Fiume (plus Albania, Corsica and Tunisia).
What surprises me is an independent Algeria peeking from the bottom of the map.
The Ottoman Empire got back Thessalonika, and possibly Macedonia as a protectorate.
Am I close?
Redbeard
Banned
1905: Germany wins a quick war against France and Russia (Schlieffen prime time). Russia disintegrates into a number of east European states, while the French make comprehensive reforms of society and army.
Norwegian independence is cancelled as the British do not want to stir the victorious Germans too much - over Norway.
1915: The Socialdemocrats form government in Germany after a number of landslide victories.
1916: A-H tries a federal constitution but is soon in a civil war. In short the Hungarians are not willing to give up their hegemony over the neighboring Slavic peoples. The Hungarians have good luck on the battlefield, and nobody wants to come to the rescue of the Habsburgs, on the contrary the Italians and Romanians utilise the opportunity to snatch a bite or two. The Habsburg Crown lands (Austria, Bohemeia and Moravia) are after one single referendum incorporated into the SD German Reich, and nobody really bothers about the Hungarians forming a Greater Hungary. The S. Balkans are through a number of extremely bloody wars which has the Ottoman keep Saloniki, but loose most of the Empire outside OTL Turkey (by courtesy of the British Empire).
1930: After contact between the SD governments in Germany and Denmark and a referendum Denmark is given back Schleswig, but forms an alliance with Germany promising to block the Baltic entrances to Germany's enemies.
1922: After many years of rebellion and pressure from Germany and other SD run countries Ireland is finally given independence.
Regards
Steffen Redbeard
Norwegian independence is cancelled as the British do not want to stir the victorious Germans too much - over Norway.
1915: The Socialdemocrats form government in Germany after a number of landslide victories.
1916: A-H tries a federal constitution but is soon in a civil war. In short the Hungarians are not willing to give up their hegemony over the neighboring Slavic peoples. The Hungarians have good luck on the battlefield, and nobody wants to come to the rescue of the Habsburgs, on the contrary the Italians and Romanians utilise the opportunity to snatch a bite or two. The Habsburg Crown lands (Austria, Bohemeia and Moravia) are after one single referendum incorporated into the SD German Reich, and nobody really bothers about the Hungarians forming a Greater Hungary. The S. Balkans are through a number of extremely bloody wars which has the Ottoman keep Saloniki, but loose most of the Empire outside OTL Turkey (by courtesy of the British Empire).
1930: After contact between the SD governments in Germany and Denmark and a referendum Denmark is given back Schleswig, but forms an alliance with Germany promising to block the Baltic entrances to Germany's enemies.
1922: After many years of rebellion and pressure from Germany and other SD run countries Ireland is finally given independence.
Regards
Steffen Redbeard
Good idea, better than mine. Could be an outcome of the Morocco crisis. OTOH, during the 1905 war Italy is allied to Germany, and gets Tunisia, Nice, Corsica and Savoy. Still don't understand Algeria. The rest goes according to your TL, including the break-up of Russia (with german help, I'm sure) but there must be some Balkan war to break up Ottoman possession in Europe. Bulgaria and greece remain quite reduced, though. What about Hungary and Italy fighting the Ottoman empire, somewhere around 1910-1915? Albania is annexed by Italy, and macedonia is a puppet state created as a buffer in the region.Redbeard said:
1905- Butterflys prevent the Swedish Norwegian split.
1917- Russian Revolution- Germany secures the Baltics- Russian Civil War
1918- Still Unhappy over Russia's taking of Finland in 1815, Sweden enters the RCW.
1921- RCW ends, Due to Swedish presense White & little Russia are formed, Finland gains it's independence, as a Swedish Statilite.
1917- Russian Revolution- Germany secures the Baltics- Russian Civil War
1918- Still Unhappy over Russia's taking of Finland in 1815, Sweden enters the RCW.
1921- RCW ends, Due to Swedish presense White & little Russia are formed, Finland gains it's independence, as a Swedish Statilite.
1905: Sweden marches into Norway to keep the two nations as one. Instead of deciding that they just don't need it, they stay on and persuade Norway to stick around.
1915(late): A larger and stronger Sweden, under heavy pressure from the British blockade, enters the war. Not only is the blockade severely unhinged but the Germans are able to open a new front vis a vis Tsarist Russia. In addition, Italy chooses to join what is now more likely to be the winning side.
1916: Russia sues for peace. Faced with the certainty of defeat England and France also yield. Realizing vast profits in the east, Germany chooses to be more moderate in the west, freeing occupied Belgium and perhaps with an eye to future relations with England.
Late 1910s-early 1920s: Reforms in Austria-Hungary fail, and the German speaking portions are absorbed into Germany following the breakup while Hungary becomes a vital new ally of the Reich. Also, Hungary, as opposed to Austria-Hungary, has fewer disputes with Italy.
1915(late): A larger and stronger Sweden, under heavy pressure from the British blockade, enters the war. Not only is the blockade severely unhinged but the Germans are able to open a new front vis a vis Tsarist Russia. In addition, Italy chooses to join what is now more likely to be the winning side.
1916: Russia sues for peace. Faced with the certainty of defeat England and France also yield. Realizing vast profits in the east, Germany chooses to be more moderate in the west, freeing occupied Belgium and perhaps with an eye to future relations with England.
Late 1910s-early 1920s: Reforms in Austria-Hungary fail, and the German speaking portions are absorbed into Germany following the breakup while Hungary becomes a vital new ally of the Reich. Also, Hungary, as opposed to Austria-Hungary, has fewer disputes with Italy.
Grimm Reaper's scenario seems plausible. I would add that it looks like Greece and Bulgaria unwisely allied with Britain and France, and lost territory because they were on the losing side.
If France gets beaten really badly, Algerian rebels might be able to establish an independent Arab state.
Or perhaps this France is a German puppet state and the French settlers in Algeria declared independence Rhodesia-style to avoid German domination.
Or perhaps this France is a German puppet state and the French settlers in Algeria declared independence Rhodesia-style to avoid German domination.
Well, it looks like Britain was forced to allow a unified independent Irish state. Perhaps France was faced with a German-supported uprising in Algeria as well and had to give up control of Algeria as part of the peace terms. The only problem is that I didn't think that there was much of an organized indepence movement in Algeria in the WWI period.
I think that TTL does not see Balkan wars.
Another strange thing: what is called "Little Russia" is exactly the area of Ukraine which these days voted for the anti-Russian party. Should really be Ukraine.
Another strange thing: what is called "Little Russia" is exactly the area of Ukraine which these days voted for the anti-Russian party. Should really be Ukraine.
Lots of good Scenarios there guys, but Thessalonica(Thessalonika)(Salonika) is in the Macedonia state in ATL here 
(And most probably The Capital ). A Map of the Region OTL
(And most probably The Capital ). A Map of the Region OTLLeo Caesius
Banned
Interesting - at this time, Salonika was nearly half Jewish (46%) - living alongside Muslim Turks and Pomaks (34%) and Christian Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbs, and Armenians (17%). Jews would have had an important role in this state, and Ladino would have been the lingua franca of its capital city.
OTL you're right. Looking at this map, macedonia looks like something smart diplomats might carve as a buffer state, maybe coupled with some ethnic cleansing (Turks toward Turkey, greeks to Greece, and Bulgarians to Bulgaria).What remains plus odds and ends from the neighbours adds up to Macedonia. Since its territory would be claimed by Greece and Bulgaria, it clearly needs big friends. The obvious solution might be a naval base at Thessalonika (Hungarian? Italian? Possibly even German)Leo Caesius said:
The other thing I'd like to see is a map of ME. I would bet is not even close to OTL
Leo Caesius
Banned
An independent Macedonia would be too small and too diverse for any effective ethnic cleansing, I would think. Ethnic "Macedonians" (who are really not all that different from Bulgarians) might even be a minority in this country, although AHP would know better than I.LordKalvan said:
Many of the minorities here also have nowhere to go. If there's no independent Albania (it being ruled from Rome) those Albanians up country will be forced to remain in Macedonia. There are also quite a few Vlachs in the hinterlands who have no state to call their own. In Salonica, alongside the Ladinos, there are also the dönme, who are the descendants of the followers of Sabbatai Zvi who converted en masse from Judaism to Islam but remain distinct from other Muslims. Most of the Bulgarians in Salonika are actually Pomaks - slavic Muslims. Many of them were left behind in Turkey and Bulgaria after the WWI and are the subject of much debate between the Greeks and the Turks today. In fact, it was in Salonika that the union of a Pomak and a dönme produced Mustafa Kemal Pasha. Oddly enough, there were also many Greek-speaking Muslims in Greece at the time, although I'm not sure how many there would have been in this area. Salonika was a kind of port of refuge for many of the Balkans' more obscure minorities.
Leo Caesius
Banned
Incidentally, here's a map of "ethno-geographical" Macedonia, from a FYROM textbook:
You can see that, in addition to all of Greek Macedonia, they've included the Pirin region of Bulgaria. This is roughly equivalent to the map of "Macedonia" published by Longman & Co. in 1842, sans Albania:
You can see that, in addition to all of Greek Macedonia, they've included the Pirin region of Bulgaria. This is roughly equivalent to the map of "Macedonia" published by Longman & Co. in 1842, sans Albania:
Hitler somehow or other convinces England and France to continue appeasement. Maybe a huge naval buildup? War never occurs. Danzig is ceded, and that park of denmark. Diplomatically, Germany aligns various nations strongly to their side, including Hungary, Ireland, and some sort of macedonian resistance. Germany applies pressure on france, and uk (north ireland). Some type of Soviet coup happens later on, and sweden and norway unite for protection.
A fascinating history: while I assume to be conversant enough with the western Balkan peninsula (also having travelled extensively the region) I am quite ignorant about the eastern part of the region. It looks a bit like Caucasus: Thessaloniki and the hinterland were the refuge of all the people who had no place of their own.Leo Caesius said:
Chapeau to your vast and impressive learning
All the same, the creation of this state, without very defensible borders and without the boost of a single ethnia, is quite intriguing. It must be the cat's paw of some larger power.