The Second Carthaginian Empire

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    Votes: 6 12.2%
  • It's bad AH; with a lot of reworking it could be saved, though

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Diamond

Banned
This is an EXTREMELY ROUGH timeline (the beginnings of it, anyway), for a world I'm developing for Dominus' ICN over on Yahoo Groups.

**hunches shoulders and prepares to have TL torn apart like a shredded head of lettuce**

The Fall of the Sassanids and the Rise of Carthage: 619-799

619: Heraclius, Emperor of the Eastern Romans, decides to move the seat of Empire from Constantinople to Carthage, in his home province of North Africa. Despite pleas from the Patriarch of the Greek Orthodox Church, Heraclius saw no hope for the future of the Empire’s Anatolian and Balkan territory, trapped as they were between the Avars to the west and the Sassanid Persians to the east.
620: The move to Carthage is completed late in the year. Beginning of Norse attacks on Ireland.
621: Persia overruns Anatolia and captures Constantinople.
622: Heraclius renames his domain the Second Carthaginian Empire.
626: The Carthaginians retake Egypt, defeating the Persians, who are stretched thin battling the Avars, Alans, and other barbarian tribes. Edwin of Northumbria founds Edinburgh and begins Christianizing his country.
628: Battle of Damascus – Persians driven out of the south. The Treaty of Palmyra signals an end to the war, leaving Carthage victorious in Egypt and the Levant, while Persia is weakened and overextended, facing large-scale army mutinies and major incursions by the Avars.
635: First major Muslim Arab invasion, targeted at Damascus, fails. Rebuffed in their attempts to move westward into Egypt and Africa, the Arabs concentrate their attacks on the north. In less than six years, the Persian Empire has been totally destroyed.
638: Seat of Persian government moved to Constantinople.
641: Constantinople falls to Arabs. Yazdigard III, last Emperor of Persia, killed by Arab troops near Nicomedia. Founding of Heracliopolis (OTL Cairo). Zoroastrianism banned by Arabs. End of the Persian Empire.
642: In the last great act of his reign, Heraclius signs treaties of friendship and trade with King Tulga of the Visigoths, securing Carthage’s western borders and allowing the Empire to concentrate on keeping out the Arabs, and expanding south and east, towards the Indian Ocean and the African interior.
644: Death of Heraclius, succeeded by Constans II, his grandson. Chinese make Korean kingdoms client states.
649: Carthage cedes lands in southern Iberia, taken by Justinian in 554, back to Visigoths. Carthage keeps Balearic Islands.
650: Chinese artists first use lamp-black ink for taking rubbings, which leads to introduction of wood blocks for printing. Khazars conquer Bulgar nations in southern Russia.
659: Umayyad Caliphate founded, governed from the old Persian city of Ctesiphon.
662: Grimoald usurps Lombard crown. Last visit to Rome by a Carthaginian Emperor (Constans II) for a century and a half.
664: Synod of Whitby – King Oswiu of Northumbria decides in favor of Roman ritual.
670(approx): First Orthodox missionaries in Makkura, Alwa, and other African states south of Egypt.
673: Death of Childeric II leads to civil war and anarchy in Frankia.
675: Bulgars settle in districts south of the Danube.
680: ‘Egyptian Fire’, a missile weapon of sulfur, rock salt, resin, and petroleum invented by Martinos of Alexandria; first used that year against Umayyad fleet near Cyprus.
685: Battle of Nechtansmere – victory of the Picts prevents Northumbria gaining control over Scotland.
686: Sussex, last heathen kingdom in England, converted to Christianity.
687: Victory of Pepin the Younger at Testry unites Frankia.
694: Arabs overrun Armenia.
695: First Arab coinage introduced.
696: Paoluccio Anafesto becomes first Doge of Venice.
698: Latin confirmed as official language of Carthaginian Empire after several motions to replace it with Greek.
700: Water wheels for mills in popular use throughout Europe. Population explosion in China – the first large urban centers develop.
701: Codification of Nihonese political law; the Mikado becomes sole proprietor of all land.
712-714: The ‘Great Invasion’: The Umayyad Caliphate mounts a massive invasion of Egypt and is driven back by Carthage, incurring devastating losses.
720: Umayyads overthrown; establishment of the Sulkhanid Caliphate.
722: First Orthodox missionaries arrive in the region of OTL Senegal and western Mali.
725: High point of Buddhist civilization in China.
730: Beginning of Tang Chinese reforms aimed at integrating the Uighers and other peoples into the Tang Empire.
737: Battle of Tulusa between Franks and Visigoths results in Frankic victory; expulsion of Visigothic settlers from Frankic lands.
742: Beginnings of turmoil between Carthaginian Emperors and the Popes over idolatry and image-worship. Charlemagne born.
749: Burgundy conquered by Frankia.
750: Kiev becomes well-known as trading center. St. Vitus’ Dance epidemics in German lands. Beds first become popular in Frankia. Nubian kingdom of Makkura becomes Carthaginian client-state.
751: Battle of the Talas River: Arabs defeated by Tang Chinese.
752: Sulkhanids overthrown by Abbasids; center of government moved to the newly-founded city of Baghdad.
755: Carthaginians take Achaea (southern Greece).
759: Lombards, with Carthaginian help, resist Frankic efforts to subjugate them.
760: Arabic numerals of Indian origin known in Baghdad.
766: Venice conquered by Carthaginians.
769: Pope Agatho II excommunicates the Carthaginian Emperor.
770: Carthaginians back several powerful chiefdoms in western Africa, resulting in the formation of the kingdom of Ghana. Carthage receives privileged trading status.
771: Charlemagne becomes sole ruler of Frankia after the death of his brother Carloman.
772: Limited trade begins between Arabs and Chinese; paper manufacture introduced to Arabs by Chinese scholars.
785: Visigoths begin to convert to Orthodox Christianity.
788: Bavaria annexed by Frankia.
790: Charlemagne condemns Carthaginian acceptance of image-worship.
794: Repeated Frankic attempts to annex the Lombard duchies result in a declaration of war by Carthaginian Emperor Tiberius III. Viking era in Britain begins with attack on Lindisfarne monastery.
795: First Norse landings in Ireland.
796: The crossbow comes into use in Frankia, other nations.
797: Abbasid Caliph Ramal al-Qahir sends an embassy to the court of Charlemagne, which is expelled by the Franks. Horse-changing posts for royal messengers installed in Frankia. Attempted Carthaginian landings in Italy repulsed by Franks.
799: Grand Alliance formed to combat the Franks, composed of Carthaginian Empire, most of the Lombard duchies, Venetian Republic, many Adriatic kingdoms and chiefdoms. Bretonna conquered by Frankia.

AltWorld13.2(800).GIF
 
Last edited:

Faeelin

Banned
I suspect that if he tries moving the capital, he's killed in short order by some servant.
 

Diamond

Banned
Faeelin said:
I suspect that if he tries moving the capital, he's killed in short order by some servant.

Well, then I wouldn't have a timeline, now would I? ;) I'm going on the theory that the Patriarch gets behind the move and endorses it, negating a lot of hostility towards Heraclius. When Constantinople falls 2 years later, just about everyone says 'damn, glad we weren't there...'.

Sean Swaby said:
BTW, where did you get the map from?

The base map is from Ian's Gateway site; I erased all the borders and drew my own on paint.

DuQuense said:
Except for the fact that Ghana was founded in the 400's

Hmmm... Information I have says that the earliest walled city in the region was Jenne-jeno, by about AD400. As far as I know, OTL Ghana was founded circa 700 AD; I just moved the date back a little due to Carthaginian meddling. Of course, my medieval African sources aren't that great, can you point me to any online stuff?
 
although i never think that anything is impossible. It does seem unlikely that a newly replanted empire, whose military is based on heavily fortified cavalry, would be able to stop the highly mobile and fanatical calvary of the Muslim Beduins. The arab population of N. Africa would be easily converted to the Islam, as they were in OTL, as N. Africans were generally treated terribly by the Byzantiens and would see the Carthaginians as just another incarnation. Heavy calavary as, historicly, not been able to stop the light calavry in the desert when not near supplies such as fresh water for the humans and horses along with food. If you look at the 3rd (i think this is the one) crusade, Richard "the Lionheart" was able to defeate any muslim army that was near the coast. But once they went inland to capture Jerusalem they were defeated time and time again. Considering the Carthaginians will have to fight much deeper in the desert and much farther from their home base I see a similar supply problem that could prove disasterouse. The Carthaginians would need to develop a army more suited for the desert or I could see the Carthaginians being routed from the Muslim armies and their own inhabitants.
 

Diamond

Banned
LDoc, yeah that's the main stumbling block I had. At first, the TL had Damascus falling to the Arabs on schedule, but then, as you've said, the distrust of the north africans would only assist the Arabs moving west.

I felt that if Damascus held, it would form THE defensive strongpoint against the Arabs. If it falls, so long Carthage. Right?

So how's this: the seat of Empire's moved to Carthage in 620; that same year, Heraclius, anxious to accumulate all the info he can about Africa and the middle east, since his empire will now be totally dependent on them, has an audience with several Arabs who are less than happy with Mohammed and his new religion, and hope to cultivate allies in the Carthaginians. Recognizing the threat inherent in the Moslems, Heraclius resolves to improve relations with his Egyptian and north african subjects, in order to build a defense against any possible incursions of the Moslems.

Now, not many people would think a bunch of desert nomads could possibly be a threat to the heirs of Rome, but it only takes a few bureaucrats to at least lay the groundwork for defensive thinking...

Does the 15 years between the Empire's move and the attack on Damascus give the Carthaginians enough time to at least partly win the goodwill of North Africa?
 
Cool. Very cool. I'd only say that I'd think that the Persians might last a bit longer, with all that territory and that Heraclius might not change the name of the Empire. The Persians could, of course, be doomed by their new accquisitions, if they piss of the populace, so sucha quick defeat is possible. As for the Empire, perhaps a later Emperor wants to make the Empire seem more African, and goes for the name change.
 
well you see these is rather tricky Islam fits in so well with Arabian life and costums. I think that Carthage will be forced to lose land, but the Islamic Beduins were largely interested in the Fertile Crescent because it was their typical raiding ground and only after the conquest of Egypt did the Muslims get interested in N. Africa. So basicly the Muslims can't reach Egypt or Carthage is screwed. So lets say that Heraclius moves his empire to N. Africa, but is quickly faced with unrest and rebellion. By 633 his empire is about to fall as this new religion of 'islam' is spurring on the revolters. To solve this problem one of Heraclius's advisors suggest he approaches him and suggest he officialy seceds their territorial rights east of Egypt (basicly the Fertile Crescent up through Anatola and up to Constantinople) in exchange the Muslims must promise not to interfere with Carthaginian affairs or territory. Although this isn't a permanent solution as the Muslims will quickly realize that Carthage is weak and ripe for the picking, but it does give Heraclius some breathing room of say half a decade to a decade depending on how the Muslim conquests of Constantinople and Central Asia go. With about a decade to a decade and a half to deal with his Muslim popluation and 20-30 years to reform his military and everything else he may have a chance of pulling somthing off, that is if he isn't assasinated or a rebellion doesn't overthrow him.
 
"The arab population of N. Africa would be easily converted to the Islam, as they were in OTL, as N. Africans were generally treated terribly by the Byzantiens and would see the Carthaginians as just another incarnation."

The North African Berber peoples (they didn't become "Arabized" until the Arab conquest), pre-Islam, often expressed their dissatisfaction with Roman rule by adopting schismatic Christian sects (after Islam, they showed their dissatisfaction with Arab rule by adopting schismatic Muslim scets).

Perhaps, in addition to making reforms in regards to taxes, citizenship, land ownership (the Byzantine emperors favored small farmers over great landowners up until the Ducas dynasty or so, so perhaps Heraclius gains popularity by distributing aristocratic lands to the masses), the Byzantines assimilate Donatist (the dominant and persecuted "heresy" of North Africa) doctrines into the Orthodox Church. He might even conveniently chuck his wife and marry a Berber woman too (or, if there were polygamous elements in North African society pre-Islam, take a Berber as a second wife). Of course, if he wasn't married, that whole conundrum wouldn't be relevant...

The oft-oppressed Berbers are now in the driver's seat. Funny what politicians will do to save their necks, eh?
 

Diamond

Banned
Rather than repost the whole damn thing, I'll just post the years and/or events that I've changed:

620: The move to Carthage is completed late in the year. Heraclius begins to institute reforms aimed at gaining the support of his north African subjects to assist in fending off the Persians.
622: Heraclius renames his domain the Second Carthaginian Empire over protests from nobles whose lands have been lost in and around Constantinople. They see the name change (rightly so) as Heraclius' way of saying forget about the East. Exiled Arab nobles, driven out of the peninsula by Mohammed’s followers, bring Heraclius word of the possible threat the new religion could pose to the Empire.
622-624: Heraclius survives no less than four assassination attempts.
633: With revolts throughout the eastern regions of his Empire, backed by the Arabs, Heraclius meets with Abu Bakr in Damascus. After a month-long conference, the two agree that Carthage will cede the ‘fertile crescent’ – basically, everything east of Egypt – to the Arabs, in return for a guarantee of non-interference in Egypt and the rest of the Empire.
635: Unable, for the moment, to invade Africa, the Arabs instead attack Persia. Persia, though seriously weakened by years of war against the Byzantines/Carthaginians, nevertheless manages to hold out for almost a decade and a half.
648: Constantinople falls to Arabs. Yazdigard III, last Emperor of Persia, killed by Arab troops near Nicomedia. Zoroatrianism banned by Arabs. End of Persian Empire (though remnants exist in the Balkans and hold out until roughly 800 AD).
649: Carthage cedes lands in southern Iberia, taken by Justinian in 554, back to Visigoths, in order to solidify treaties of alliance. Carthage keeps Balearic Islands.

*************************************

How's that? Did I forget anything? Does that give me enough 'wiggle room'?
 
pretty good but a minor suggestion is that the Persians would barely be able to last a decade, but thats rather minor. The rest of it looks good but how are you going to reform the army? I would suggest an army based on the Muslim model of light calvary and infantry, further along i could see horse archers being developed with devestating effectiveness (i.e. Mongols).
 

Diamond

Banned
Couple more changes:

636: Synod of Carthage: Church leaders meet to discuss the possibilities of incorporating some of the Berber peoples’ splinter sects into official Church dogma, to bring them closer to the Empire.

645: Marriage of Constans II to Berber princess Misuena.
 

Diamond

Banned
LDoc said:
pretty good but a minor suggestion is that the Persians would barely be able to last a decade, but thats rather minor.
I did that to give Carthage some more breathing room. It's only 7 or 8 years more than OTL, and here, the Persians can keep falling back and falling back without worrying about getting smashed against a Byzantine rock at Constantinople.

LDoc said:
The rest of it looks good but how are you going to reform the army? I would suggest an army based on the Muslim model of light calvary and infantry, further along i could see horse archers being developed with devestating effectiveness (i.e. Mongols).
That's about what I was looking at. After all, the Empire is a desert power now, and they'll have to face facts that tactics that worked well in Anatolia and the Balkans won't work here...
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
Matt Quinn said:
The North African Berber peoples (they didn't become "Arabized" until the Arab conquest), pre-Islam, often expressed their dissatisfaction with Roman rule by adopting schismatic Christian sects (after Islam, they showed their dissatisfaction with Arab rule by adopting schismatic Muslim scets).
One of the strongest and most abiding characteristics of North African religion, be it Donatist or Islamic, is the cult of the martyrs. This might have interesting ramifications for the state religion, if the Berbers are in the driver's seat.

The linguistic situation in North Africa is actually quite complex at this time; not all of the so-called "Libyan Inscriptions," which are said to be the earliest attestations of the Berber languages, are necessarily so. There are also Punic holdouts in the interior (a large number of inscriptions, mostly funerary, in a Punic dialect in Latin characters have survived in Tripolitania, and a few are attested in Algeria as well). Punic may have survived until the Arab conquest, albeit in small groups. It would seem that these groups maintained pagan religion, immolating their dead (which, IIRC, was prohibited to the Christian groups in North Africa).

There is also some evidence of a native Neo-Latin dialect developing along the lines of the Romance languages. The few examples that exist bear similarities to Sardinian. If the Arabs hadn't conquered North Africa, it might have a Romance language today in addition to the Berber and Punic survivals. If you are interested, I can fish up the references for this - I have a file on North African languages.
 
Needs serious work in the East

What on earth have you done with Tibet? In 800 in OTL the Tibetan Empire is still a major world power, and they've just - vanished? Been conquered by China?

Diamond said:
725: High point of Buddhist civilization in China.
730: Beginning of Tang Chinese reforms aimed at integrating the Uighers and other peoples into the Tang Empire.

In OTL the Uighurs are still part of the second Eastern Turk empire in 730: they and the Qarluqs overthrow the empire in the 740s, the Uighurs eventually establishing their own empire over the eastern steppe. I can't figure out what's going on in your TL.
 
Well Diamond, Ghana apparently was founded in the 400s, although it apparently did not become a fully influential and established power til 750. See this site:

http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/CIVAFRCA/GHANA.HTM

So that might need to be changed somewhat. Maybe your Second Carthaginian Empire signs an alliance or trade treaty or something in place of helping to establish Ghana. Or maybe you could also have them establish some puppet/allied kingdom near to Ghana.

Oh and check out these sites:

http://www.friesian.com/romania.htm
http://www.cit.gu.edu.au/~sctwiseh/Roman/RomanEmpire.html

They are both great resources.
 
"After all, the Empire is a desert power now"

The phrase "desert power" brings images of the Fremen from Frank Herbert's Dune to mind. Long live the fighters of Muad'dib!!

Onto more serious stuff...

"One of the strongest and most abiding characteristics of North African religion, be it Donatist or Islamic, is the cult of the martyrs"

Hmm...Robert Kaplan observed in the Shi'a Islamic world, there's a lot of ritualized mourning for Ali and his family; in Iraq, Shi'ite pilgrims after Saddam's fall indulged in ritual self-cutting in some cases. He also commented that a slightly lower-key version of this happens among the Serbs in the Balkans (mourning for Tsar Lazar).

Transplant the Serb-type stuff into North Africa, replace Tsar Lazar with a Donatist martyr (perhaps one killed just before the Emperors embrace Donatism) and have the Emperors indulging in it and that'd certainly be fun. The Donatists believed in the permanent de-frocking of clergymen who gave in under persecution, so that could lead to the booting of a lot of clergymen in the official Roman church. A mini-Reformation of sorts...the bootlicking types will be gone.

Diamond, thanks for using some of my ideas. I hope they were helpful.

"There is also some evidence of a native Neo-Latin dialect developing along the lines of the Romance languages. The few examples that exist bear similarities to Sardinian."

That sounds interesting; perhaps we can run with it. Sardinia is in Italy, right?

"622: Heraclius renames his domain the Second Carthaginian Empire over protests from nobles whose lands have been lost in and around Constantinople. They see the name change (rightly so) as Heraclius' way of saying forget about the East. Exiled Arab nobles, driven out of the peninsula by Mohammed’s followers, bring Heraclius word of the possible threat the new religion could pose to the Empire."

One caveat...the Byzantines called themselves Romans; the Byzantine bit comes from later historians. I think that the Empire would still be "Roman"; perhaps later historians will call it Carthaginian, Romano-Carthaginian, or even Tunisian.

"End of Persian Empire (though remnants exist in the Balkans and hold out until roughly 800 AD)."

I was wondering about what happened to Byzantine territories in Europe (the Balkans and all). It seems some fell to the Persians; what about the Avars? I think they're still around at this point. What happens to the "remnants" in 800 AD? Also, with the seat of the Orthodox Church (if it can be called that at this point) in North Africa, how does Balkan religion develop? Are they Christians (if so, what kind), Muslims (if so, what kind), Bogomils, or something else entirely?

From the later portions of your TL, I see the Franks becoming a "Great Power" and the Carthaginians (easier on the tongue than North African Romans) allying with the Lombards and Venetians to deal with them. Since there's a Venetian Republic, I assume the Lombards don't unify Italy. How does Italy go with the Byzantines simply giving up on it and the Franks too weak to make difficulties? Is the Pope a Lombard puppet?

Good job overall.
 
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