Could anybody design a POD where the Whites, supported by the Western Allies, the Japanese, Poland, Baltic countries, and other anti-Communist forces, win the Russian CW at some point between 1919 and 1922 ? What circumstances would've been necessary for the Reds to have been defeated, esp. in terms of greater co-ordination between the various rival anti-Bolshevik forces ? How would a non-Bolshevik successor of Tsarist Russia have looked like during the 1920s ?
Whites win Russian CW
- Thread starter Melvin Loh
- Start date
I have done a timeline where the revolution is still born.
I think there are twists on this
1) Germans win the war, almost certainly the Whites could then be kept going idefinitely
2) US does not enter the war, Allies put massive resources into the RCW in order to re-open the Eastern front
3) Military factors, about which I know very little, the early ones - release of Kornilov(?), mobilization of the officers in St Petersburg, a role for Krasnov and his Cossacks, seem most likely to allow white victory
I think there are twists on this
1) Germans win the war, almost certainly the Whites could then be kept going idefinitely
2) US does not enter the war, Allies put massive resources into the RCW in order to re-open the Eastern front
3) Military factors, about which I know very little, the early ones - release of Kornilov(?), mobilization of the officers in St Petersburg, a role for Krasnov and his Cossacks, seem most likely to allow white victory
Redbeard
Banned
Have Trotsky choke in his borsch and the Red Army will be short of a very important organiser and leader. Or let the Whites have acess to a similar personality.
Defeating the Reds will still leave the Whites with a lot of trouble about who among the Whites is going to take the prize. The Whites were not really one group but included anything from monarchists over oligarchs to opportunistic warlords and even including something resembling democrats. I guess we will see a rather chaotic period which in best case will resemble that after the fall of the wall and in worst case another bloody civil war. I think there is a considerable risk of a fascist like regime based on traditionalist and religious values. It will hate anything not Russian/Orthodox and not be a faithful ally of the west European fascists, but as capable of a Rippentrop pact as Stalin's regime. If/when this regime consolidates if will be a threat to any neighbor of Russia.
Regards
Steffen Redbeard
Defeating the Reds will still leave the Whites with a lot of trouble about who among the Whites is going to take the prize. The Whites were not really one group but included anything from monarchists over oligarchs to opportunistic warlords and even including something resembling democrats. I guess we will see a rather chaotic period which in best case will resemble that after the fall of the wall and in worst case another bloody civil war. I think there is a considerable risk of a fascist like regime based on traditionalist and religious values. It will hate anything not Russian/Orthodox and not be a faithful ally of the west European fascists, but as capable of a Rippentrop pact as Stalin's regime. If/when this regime consolidates if will be a threat to any neighbor of Russia.
Regards
Steffen Redbeard
Let's consider timing of the conflict- how long can this go on? What if the Royal family (or some significant portion there of) escapes the Bolsheviks to the West, or some portion of Russia where they can't easily be gotten? Is it possible that the British could then get involved in an effort to 'carve out' that portion of Russia for them, which if not agreeable to the communists is accepted to avoid the conflict with England.
We would then have a large Communist Russia and a smaller Royalist "white" Russia. Then might the ATL conflict that followed WWI be oriented more to liberating Russia from the Communists?
In the end the Whites would win, but the civil war would be measured in decades, but this sort of civil war happens all the time these days.
We would then have a large Communist Russia and a smaller Royalist "white" Russia. Then might the ATL conflict that followed WWI be oriented more to liberating Russia from the Communists?
In the end the Whites would win, but the civil war would be measured in decades, but this sort of civil war happens all the time these days.
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
Here are some possibilities:
1. Michael accepts the throne instead of turning it down.
2. Nicholas (or at least Alexei) is rescued by the Whites
3. The Germans win the war.
4. Lenin and Trotsky refuse to pay a ruble to use a public restroom and are bludgeoned to death by the attending babushka.
1. Michael accepts the throne instead of turning it down.
2. Nicholas (or at least Alexei) is rescued by the Whites
3. The Germans win the war.
4. Lenin and Trotsky refuse to pay a ruble to use a public restroom and are bludgeoned to death by the attending babushka.
Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
A nameless gentleman in a suit provides you with the opportunity to closely examine the bottom of a bowl of borscht for several minutes.
No Russian civil war is easy. Just have the Kerensky faction tell the British that if they don't get some consumer goods and gold to prop up their government, they are going to make a separate peace.
The Germans deal directly with Kerensky instead of that traitor Kornilov. The Russians lose Poland, the Baltics, Finland, and Moldova. They spend 1917 and 1918 getting the farms back in shape and rehabilitating the railroads, then rejoin the war as the Germans are launching their final attack on France in the teeth of the American army.
The German retreat to the Rhine is outflanked when the allies pressure the Netherlands to join the war, followed by another entire American army unloading in Copenhagen and establishing a new front on Jutland.
Austria-Hungary collapses completely when the Hungarians change sides in the Christmas Betrayal of 1918, in return for the promise of not losing all their land in Transylvania to the Rumanians.
Germany's industrial wealth is essentially destroyed in the war. The first part of the war has an exchange rate of two to one in favor of Germany. The second part has an exchange rate of two to one against Germany due to the weight of American ammunition and aircraft. This is especially true for the period during and after the firebombing of Hamburg by the huge American Jutland front air fleets in July of 1920, after the American Liberty aircraft program gets into high gear.
The war ends in the smoldering ruins of Berlin in autumn 1920, as the Kaiser dies in his bunker with a gun in his hand.
The Germans deal directly with Kerensky instead of that traitor Kornilov. The Russians lose Poland, the Baltics, Finland, and Moldova. They spend 1917 and 1918 getting the farms back in shape and rehabilitating the railroads, then rejoin the war as the Germans are launching their final attack on France in the teeth of the American army.
The German retreat to the Rhine is outflanked when the allies pressure the Netherlands to join the war, followed by another entire American army unloading in Copenhagen and establishing a new front on Jutland.
Austria-Hungary collapses completely when the Hungarians change sides in the Christmas Betrayal of 1918, in return for the promise of not losing all their land in Transylvania to the Rumanians.
Germany's industrial wealth is essentially destroyed in the war. The first part of the war has an exchange rate of two to one in favor of Germany. The second part has an exchange rate of two to one against Germany due to the weight of American ammunition and aircraft. This is especially true for the period during and after the firebombing of Hamburg by the huge American Jutland front air fleets in July of 1920, after the American Liberty aircraft program gets into high gear.
The war ends in the smoldering ruins of Berlin in autumn 1920, as the Kaiser dies in his bunker with a gun in his hand.
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
Gladi said:
You guys are pretty creative. Borsch can be with or without cream. You ought to know, you're the Slav!
I did read about one interesting possibility for a Bolshevik defeat. In mid-1919, the Whites in the south had advanced to the city of Orel, about 400 km south of Moscow. However, they were and the end of their ropes, and the Red offensive in October smashed them to the point that the whole southern front collapsed.
Now, if the Whites had gotten some assistance, possibly from an earlier Polish attack to the west, this might have helped them out enough to make it to Moscow.
And on the borscht debate, maybe you can choke on a hunk of beet? It'd be like choking on a banana, but doable.
Now, if the Whites had gotten some assistance, possibly from an earlier Polish attack to the west, this might have helped them out enough to make it to Moscow.
And on the borscht debate, maybe you can choke on a hunk of beet? It'd be like choking on a banana, but doable.
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
Ivan Druzhkov said:
But borscht doesn't have actual CHUNKS of beet in it does it? At least it doesn't in Poland.
Brilliantlight
Banned
Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
Or have the Germans lose quicker, if the Germans lose in August or September for some reason then Kerinski is strengthened a lot.