According to the Bible, King David ruled over a large empire which included not only present-day Palestine but also large parts of Syria, with it's northern border on the Euphrates River. His successor, Solomon, managed to hold the empire together during his reign, but upon his death the Hebrew Kingdom split in twain and the empire fell apart. Assuming a POD where the successors of Solomon prevent the split-up of the united Hebrew nation, could the House of David have maintained, or even expanded, it's empire? What effect might this have had on the history of the Near East, and the world? Would the empire have been able to resist Assyria in the 7-8th centuries, B.C.? Indeed, would Assyria even have become a major empire in such a situation? How would Judaism have developed? Would it have become a major world religion centuries ahead of time?
Long-lived Davidic Empire
- Thread starter robertp6165
- Start date
That would have eventually made Jesus the King of this Hebrew nation as Jesus was a descendent of King David...
Walter_Kaufmann said:
Assuming that the Hebrew Empire survived that long, that would be a definite possibility. Now THAT would certainly have set off some butterflies!
That would change the modern world so much that it may verge on being completely unrecognizable.
Walter_Kaufmann said:
Well, I think that it would have made him Jesus the Pretender at most...
Walter_Kaufmann said:
I agree. Of course, to survive that long, the Hebrew Empire would have had to weather not only the Assyrians, but the Babylonians, the Persians, the Macedonians and the Romans. I have a hard time thinking that they would have made it that long, unless at some early point they adopted a policy of forcibly converting non-Hebrews to Judaism (or whatever the Hebrew religion would have been called in such a situation...Yahwehism?), which would have given them higher population numbers to work with and allowed for a much, much stronger military.
Anyways, had the kingdoms of Judah and Israel (can we agree to call them *Israel, just to make things simpler?) survived, I suspect that the entire Jewish religion would be much stronger for two reasons. A) Having a Jewish Empire, like *Israel can only be a good example for the religion. B) With Jesus being the King of *Israel, Christianity would never have developed and, thus, there'd be less competition with alt-Judaism.
Expect to see another religion (besides Christianity) arise. Perhaps here's a good time to incorporate that thread about Mithraism. Or, if you want to get even more different, perhaps we could see Zoroastrianism arise to compete with alt-Judaism. I'd expect *Israel to become a successful, powerful force in the Mediterranean. It would be good if *Israel owned a more fertile region to produce food. Expect a play for Egypt and the Nile.
In a couple hundred years, we'll see major wars between *Israel and Persia. These wars could prove to be awful for the Kingdom of *Israel or they could allow it to become even more powerful. I'd expect *Israel and Persia to break one another's back, allowing for Greece to arise as the most powerful force in the Mediterranean. Expect eventual Grecian unification and no fighting with Persia. I'd expect Greece to grow have a relative amount of power to OTL's Roman Empire.
We'd see a more Eastern-oriented Europe in later years. Expect the Romanian and Bulgarian areas (forgot the general name for both) to become major powers in later years, much like OTL's France and Britain. Expect Russia to be more Ukrainian based (will Russia finally have warm water port?) I expect to see a slower rise of power in Western Europe lacking the Roman influence.
Anyone else want to pick up where I left off?
Expect to see another religion (besides Christianity) arise. Perhaps here's a good time to incorporate that thread about Mithraism. Or, if you want to get even more different, perhaps we could see Zoroastrianism arise to compete with alt-Judaism. I'd expect *Israel to become a successful, powerful force in the Mediterranean. It would be good if *Israel owned a more fertile region to produce food. Expect a play for Egypt and the Nile.
In a couple hundred years, we'll see major wars between *Israel and Persia. These wars could prove to be awful for the Kingdom of *Israel or they could allow it to become even more powerful. I'd expect *Israel and Persia to break one another's back, allowing for Greece to arise as the most powerful force in the Mediterranean. Expect eventual Grecian unification and no fighting with Persia. I'd expect Greece to grow have a relative amount of power to OTL's Roman Empire.
We'd see a more Eastern-oriented Europe in later years. Expect the Romanian and Bulgarian areas (forgot the general name for both) to become major powers in later years, much like OTL's France and Britain. Expect Russia to be more Ukrainian based (will Russia finally have warm water port?) I expect to see a slower rise of power in Western Europe lacking the Roman influence.
Anyone else want to pick up where I left off?
Walter_Kaufmann said:
Yes, "Israel" would be the appropriate name for the united Hebrew kingdom/Empire. I would agree with you that the religion would be stronger than in OTL, but the central problem faced by the Hebrews was the "Chosen People" concept which prevented them from mixing with other peoples. Indeed, in the Book of Judges, I believe, Hebrew men were ordered not to marry non-Hebrew women. There simply were not enough Hebrews to maintain a large empire down to the time of Jesus unless something is done to expand the population base. The Hasmoneans did that by forcibly converting non-Jews (such as the Idumaeans or Edomites...Herod was a converted Idumaean, for example).
Also, it should be mentioned that Yahwehism (it wouldn't be "Judaism" in this ATL world...that term arose because of the destruction of the Kingdom of Israel, which left the Yahweh religion as the religion of the tribe of Judah, only, thus "Judaism") will be much different in this ATL. Judaism as it exists today was heavily influenced by the decline and fall of the Hebrew Empire in OTL and the later destruction of it's successor states, Israel and Judah. Some of the things that made Judaism so resilient and enabled it to survive (syagogue worship, rabbinic judaism, and other things) occurred because of the Babylonian Captivity and the later Diaspora. Would these things have occurred in this ATL?
Walter_Kaufmann said:
Well, that depends. Certainly Christianity as we know it would not have developed. But if Jesus really was (as I and most Christians believe) the son of God, and was sent here to save mankind, then something else might have developed. Possibly Yahwehism itself would have developed into something resembling Christianity.
Walter_Kaufmann said:
Agreed.
Walter_Kaufmann said:
Possibly. They might also go for dominance of Mesopotamia.
Walter_Kaufmann said:
That is a definite possibility.
Walter_Kaufmann said:
I have to disagree there...the Greeks NEVER unified in OTL. They were finally conquered by an outside force (Macedon) which even then did not control all of Greece (Sparta remained independent). Given the pressures they were under from outside forces which would have lead just about anyone else in history to unify, I don't see that anything in this ATL changes which would lead to Greek unification. I still think Rome will arise on schedule, and will swallow up the Greeks just as in OTL. Possibly we have a Rome versus Israel rivalry which parallel the Rome/Parthia rivalry in OTL?
Walter_Kaufmann said:
I don't see any of this necessarily follows at all...
Anyone else want to pick up where I left off?[/QUOTE]
Good day
Hmm interesting idea but I would say that Assyrians just gobble up twelfe tribes instead of OTL's ten. Afterall wasn't Israel the much greater and powerful of the two Jewish Kingdoms?
Oh and before anybody start abou how large the Davidic Empire was, at least to History Channel it was not so large as in Bible, tales tend to inflate.
Hmm interesting idea but I would say that Assyrians just gobble up twelfe tribes instead of OTL's ten. Afterall wasn't Israel the much greater and powerful of the two Jewish Kingdoms?
Oh and before anybody start abou how large the Davidic Empire was, at least to History Channel it was not so large as in Bible, tales tend to inflate.
Gladi said:
It is true that Israel was the more powerful of the two Hebrew kingdoms after the schism, and Assyria did conquer Israel in OTL. However, it does not follow from this that Assyria is necessarily going to have an easy time with a united Hebrew Empire extending from the borders of Egypt to the Euphrates. Assyria was able to expand as it did in Syria and Palestine in large part because the region was divided into petty kingdoms and city states, constantly warring with each other. The one time when a majority of the region united against them (the alliance which fought against King Shalmaneser III of Assyria at Qarqar in 853 BC), the Assyrians lost. A united Hebrew Empire, in control of the Syro-Palestine region for 200 years by that point, should be able to muster at least as much military might as did the 853 BC alliance.
robertp6165 said:
Well I have to admit that you caught me with my pants down. Yeeeakh!!!
Only extra stuff I did on Assyrians was about Nineveh and their part of Law Code (how to divide heritage between wife, concubine and their children).
I know we are speaking about time period when massacring of entire cities did not make newspaper even in summer, but...
I see no evidence that Hebrews ever maintained such a large empire as told in Bible, and see no way they could control large subject nationalities who hate their very guts for burning all their temples and idols.
Thus even if there is Hebrew Empire, I submit to you that Assyrians would have easier job! I submit that people will rebel aganist the monotheistic/theocratical empire- hey wait Assyrians are the same thing...? Well I submit that corrupt Israelite Empire will be easier picking!
BTW why do Jews live in Israel and not Judea?
Gladi said:
The Davidic Hebrew Empire was a very short-lived entity. The Israelites did not leave much physical evidence of their presence in their homelands in Palestine, which they occupied for over 600 years. Their culture was very similar to that of the Aramaeans and Canaanites which surrounded them, with the exception that they made no graven images. There is no real reason to think there is going to be a lot of evidence of the existence of the Hebrew Empire left.
Gladi said:
The Bible doesn't mention the Israelites under David and Solomon "burning temples and idols" when they conquered neighboring peoples. The policy seems to have been, "pay tribute and worship as you please." At that time Yahweh was the national God of Israel. He was not seen as "everyone's God" at that time, and the Israelites did not try to root out the native religions of the areas they conquered (except in their own homeland, of course).
Gladi said:
If it was a corrupt, monotheistic, theocratic empire, you might be right. But the Hebrew Empire was not any of these things.
The Davidic-Solomon empire seemed to kind of a "flash-in-the-pan" state. Similar to Skanderbeg's Albania (that whipped the Ottomans several times) or the Turkic Muslim state in western China.
Perhaps, if you want to have the unified Israel last longer, have Solomon be more restrained in his habits. According to the Bible, he seems to have been a case of someone who had a high income and spent it faster than it came in, though towards the end of his life ("Ecclesiastes") he seems to have come to the conclusion that materialism was pointless. No huge mega-projects and no conscription of laborers to build them (or at least fewer--perhaps just the Temple, as everyone probably liked that). The breaking point was when his son continued this behavior against the advise of Solomon's advisors.
Perhaps, if you want to have the unified Israel last longer, have Solomon be more restrained in his habits. According to the Bible, he seems to have been a case of someone who had a high income and spent it faster than it came in, though towards the end of his life ("Ecclesiastes") he seems to have come to the conclusion that materialism was pointless. No huge mega-projects and no conscription of laborers to build them (or at least fewer--perhaps just the Temple, as everyone probably liked that). The breaking point was when his son continued this behavior against the advise of Solomon's advisors.
Matt Quinn said:
You are right. The leaders of the ten northern tribes came to his successor Rehoboam, asking for relief from the burdens Solomon had imposed on them. Rehoboam ignored counsel from his father's former advisors urging him to "be a servant unto the people this day" and "they will be thy servants forever," and instead told them...as he was counseled to do by the young men at court..."My father made your yoke heavy, and I will add to your yoke; my father also chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions." Needless to say, the ten northern tribes revolted and the empire split.
So a good point of departure might be for Rehoboam to take the council of the "old men" rather than that of the "young men." Rehoboam reduces taxes and levies of labor on the Hebrew tribes, and perhaps accepts the advice of a Council of the Twelve which will act to restrain the excesses of the monarchy in the future.
Pretty good Matt and Robert, you given me some Ideas to start this timeline off. Most Historians date the split of the empire around 925 B.C that gives me plenty of elbow room to start off with.
P.S. Would It be possible for The Infamous Sea Peoples to create an colony in souther west africa or India?
P.S. Would It be possible for The Infamous Sea Peoples to create an colony in souther west africa or India?
Phaeton,
I think the "Sea Peoples" were analogous to the Philistines...taking them to SW Africa is little much, but perhaps they could be driven out of Gaza by a more powerful united Israel and, if not attack Egypt (the Egyptians drove them out of the Delta into Gaza), perhaps go further west and establish something resembling Carthage.
I think the "Sea Peoples" were analogous to the Philistines...taking them to SW Africa is little much, but perhaps they could be driven out of Gaza by a more powerful united Israel and, if not attack Egypt (the Egyptians drove them out of the Delta into Gaza), perhaps go further west and establish something resembling Carthage.
Proctol
Banned
The New Testament gives Jesus' lineage from David, but then fractures it by making the "Holy Ghost" Jesus' father! No wonder the Jews refuse to this day to accept his Messianic credentials, being that the prerequisite is that he must be of unbroken Davidic paternal lineage!
Matthew 1:
1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
4 And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;
5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;
6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;
7 And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa;
8 And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;
9 And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias;
10 And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias;
11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;
13 And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;
14 And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud;
15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.
18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Matthew 1:
1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
4 And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;
5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;
6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;
7 And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa;
8 And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;
9 And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias;
10 And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias;
11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;
13 And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;
14 And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud;
15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.
18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
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