As I understand, the Hispanic pop of the US has tended to be concentrated in the southwestern states bordering Mexico, esp. California, Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona, with large concentrations, esp. Puerto Ricans, also in large industrial cities in the northeast such as NY, Chicago, and New England cities, and in Florida with the influx of Cuban refugees. There's also been a significant influx of Latinos into the Ozark states for job opportunities, whom AFAIK comprise both Mexican immigrants and refugees from Central American countries. What factors could facilitate the Hispanic pop being scattered more widely thruout the US ?
More widespread Hispanic population
- Thread starter Melvin Loh
- Start date
I would suggest that the best way would be to have a higher general level of education in Latin America, so that when individuals come in, they fit easily into more professional roles.
Because you have a higher ratio of professionalism, they will spread out more evenly because more jobs are open and they are better 'integrated' into the population. This would reduce any residual discrimination of the native population. It's hard to resent your Doctor merely because he's from Mexico.
This will require both a higher standard of living and a higher standard of education in Latin America.
Because you have a higher ratio of professionalism, they will spread out more evenly because more jobs are open and they are better 'integrated' into the population. This would reduce any residual discrimination of the native population. It's hard to resent your Doctor merely because he's from Mexico.
This will require both a higher standard of living and a higher standard of education in Latin America.
they may be concentrated in the SW, but they are actually spread out more than you might think. Surprisingly, the mostly white conservative leaning Rocky Mountain states have a growing Hispanic population. Even ultra-conservative 90% white Idaho has over 100,000 hispanics, comprising 8% of the population. The reason behind it is agriculture... jobs in this industry attract hispanics. Many came at first on a seasonal only basis, but many have stayed year round. In the coming decade, they are going to be a substantial minority everywhere in the nation. How to get it all started earlier? Well, how about some POD that decreases the white agricultural population earlier than in OTL.... earlier mechanization, earlier and more widespread education?
Just to come off David's message. I noticed this when I lived up in Erie PA, there were a lot of Hispanics but they were largely 'invisible', living in parts of town where the powers that be never saw them.
But if as a POD we have a different and free educational system put into place in Latin America, then any immigrants have an easier time taking jobs that are of a more professional nature.
I remember something along these lines on the old board.
But if as a POD we have a different and free educational system put into place in Latin America, then any immigrants have an easier time taking jobs that are of a more professional nature.
I remember something along these lines on the old board.
Hispanics americanize like Irish
One difference between Hispanics and 'regular' immigrants is that the Hispanic population doesn't have the barrier the 'regular' immigrants did. It's cheap to move to America now, unlike when my mother's parents came when poor people simply couldn't afford to go.
Hispanics are more like the Irish Catholics that came because the ships hauling bulky and heavy American grains to the UK were mostly empty on the way back with dense and light manufactured goods. As a result the Irish that came to America were primarily poor, working class people that took more than a hundred years to raise their standard of living to the 'American' level.
The same phenomenum is why southerners are still poorer than the 'American' level. They (like the blacks) came to America as property, as indentured servants or exiled criminals (and there frequently wasn't a difference) that didn't have to or couldn't work and save money to afford the passage to America. Boston and other Yankee coastal cities publicly whipped captains of ships that tried to sell indentured servants from Britain in New England.
Kevin Phillip discusses this in the 'Cousins Wars', about the differences in culture by the immigrants to America still form language and political fault lines.
One difference between Hispanics and 'regular' immigrants is that the Hispanic population doesn't have the barrier the 'regular' immigrants did. It's cheap to move to America now, unlike when my mother's parents came when poor people simply couldn't afford to go.
Hispanics are more like the Irish Catholics that came because the ships hauling bulky and heavy American grains to the UK were mostly empty on the way back with dense and light manufactured goods. As a result the Irish that came to America were primarily poor, working class people that took more than a hundred years to raise their standard of living to the 'American' level.
The same phenomenum is why southerners are still poorer than the 'American' level. They (like the blacks) came to America as property, as indentured servants or exiled criminals (and there frequently wasn't a difference) that didn't have to or couldn't work and save money to afford the passage to America. Boston and other Yankee coastal cities publicly whipped captains of ships that tried to sell indentured servants from Britain in New England.
Kevin Phillip discusses this in the 'Cousins Wars', about the differences in culture by the immigrants to America still form language and political fault lines.
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I didn't answer your question, did I?
When they passed the anti-immigrant laws after WWI to keep the commies out, they could have made an exception by education. If the US had let in anyone that could pass the equivalent of a 1921 high school exam in English, it would have had the effect of the anti-asian and anti-east european laws that their immigration laws made explicit.
Then the smaller number of Hispanic immigrants would have been able to settle anywhere in the US instead of being forced to settle near others who spoke their language. Result, no population concentrations.
Of course, we would have got a lot more British Empire immigrants especially from South Asia, Hong Kong, the Caribbean, Africa, etc. Not a bad idea. I worry about the number of signs I see in Spanish. I would rather that half the Spanish speaking immigrants were from other language groups, so as to speed assimilation. Brazilians, even, since they speak Portuguese.
More than a third of the children in elementary schools in California speak some Spanish, more than half speak some language other than English at home.
It's like New York when my mother's parents came, except that my mother's parents wouldn't speak to her in Hungarian so she would learn English faster. She can count to ten in Hungarian, and that's about it.
When they passed the anti-immigrant laws after WWI to keep the commies out, they could have made an exception by education. If the US had let in anyone that could pass the equivalent of a 1921 high school exam in English, it would have had the effect of the anti-asian and anti-east european laws that their immigration laws made explicit.
Then the smaller number of Hispanic immigrants would have been able to settle anywhere in the US instead of being forced to settle near others who spoke their language. Result, no population concentrations.
Of course, we would have got a lot more British Empire immigrants especially from South Asia, Hong Kong, the Caribbean, Africa, etc. Not a bad idea. I worry about the number of signs I see in Spanish. I would rather that half the Spanish speaking immigrants were from other language groups, so as to speed assimilation. Brazilians, even, since they speak Portuguese.
More than a third of the children in elementary schools in California speak some Spanish, more than half speak some language other than English at home.
It's like New York when my mother's parents came, except that my mother's parents wouldn't speak to her in Hungarian so she would learn English faster. She can count to ten in Hungarian, and that's about it.
How about if when they decide to build the Railroad they decide to use labor from Mexico, and this becomes a part of the Mexican cultural identity. Thus, coming East you have the Irish, but coming West you have the Mexicans, who then go on to build Railraods throughout the country.
Later, when automobiles arrive, the Meican experience on Rail construction directly transfers to highways.
This gets them just about everywhere a road is being build, particularly in the early years. By the time highway construction becomes a political boondoggle, the hispanic construction companies are right there with the rest.
Later, when automobiles arrive, the Meican experience on Rail construction directly transfers to highways.
This gets them just about everywhere a road is being build, particularly in the early years. By the time highway construction becomes a political boondoggle, the hispanic construction companies are right there with the rest.
Norman, you used to live in Erie, PA, how long ago? I live in Erie now.
As for the post, Perhaps earlier immigration would help. This would would give them time to spread throughout America. When I lived in Sioux City, Iowa, there were a good deal of Hispanics. Mostly people coming from the southwest rather tecently.
As for the post, Perhaps earlier immigration would help. This would would give them time to spread throughout America. When I lived in Sioux City, Iowa, there were a good deal of Hispanics. Mostly people coming from the southwest rather tecently.
Michael E Johnson
Banned
---What factors could facilitate the Hispanic pop being scattered more widely thruout the US ?----
OTL I really believe that this question depends on how much that Hispanics want to be "Americanized" or how much of their native culture they want to retain (Spanish,Catholicism etc) Hispanics have been given access to the American melting pot because they are light enough.The slogan of the American melting pot is as follows-If youre white-youre all right,if your're brown-stick around,if your're black- get back.So many Hispanics are light enough to assissimlate into the white majority if they choose (like Asians).Many Hispanics(especially from Mexico) seem to want to retain their culture in the form of language and religion and other practices that arent especially the American norm theses days (ie large families).There is alot of resistence from many Americans to America being a bilingual country-but in the West it already is in large measure. The US attitude towards "illegal immigration" (which is immigration from Mexico in all but name) is very hypocritical as its been clear for many years that the United States values cheap labor for dirty jobs much more than it does secure borders.Personally, I think it would be the ultimate poetic justice if the character of American society was eventually altered by the decendants of the people who were killed in the genocide that made America.Besides whats really wrong with sneaking into a country made up of land stolen from your ancestors anyway
?
OTL I really believe that this question depends on how much that Hispanics want to be "Americanized" or how much of their native culture they want to retain (Spanish,Catholicism etc) Hispanics have been given access to the American melting pot because they are light enough.The slogan of the American melting pot is as follows-If youre white-youre all right,if your're brown-stick around,if your're black- get back.So many Hispanics are light enough to assissimlate into the white majority if they choose (like Asians).Many Hispanics(especially from Mexico) seem to want to retain their culture in the form of language and religion and other practices that arent especially the American norm theses days (ie large families).There is alot of resistence from many Americans to America being a bilingual country-but in the West it already is in large measure. The US attitude towards "illegal immigration" (which is immigration from Mexico in all but name) is very hypocritical as its been clear for many years that the United States values cheap labor for dirty jobs much more than it does secure borders.Personally, I think it would be the ultimate poetic justice if the character of American society was eventually altered by the decendants of the people who were killed in the genocide that made America.Besides whats really wrong with sneaking into a country made up of land stolen from your ancestors anyway
?Michael E Johnson said:Personally, I think it would be the ultimate poetic justice if the character of American society was eventually altered by the decendants of the people who were killed in the genocide that made America.Besides whats really wrong with sneaking into a country made up of land stolen from your ancestors anyway
I didn't know that Americans ever committed any sort of "genocide" against the Mexicans. The Mexican population is mostly of Spanish descent. The closest America came to a genocide was against Indian populations in the Great Plains. Even the Indian population of Mexico is different from the former Indian population of America. Most Indians in Mexico descend from Aztec origins. Thus, the American western lands never belonged to those same Indian groups that may or may not sneak across our southern border.
The Mexican population does have a semi-legitimate claim, I guess, to the American southwest, but, then again, they are the fair spoils of war. Texas declared independence from Mexico and willingly joined the US. Thus, Texas was every bit a legal acquisition. New Mexico, Arizona, California, Nevada, and Utah, however, were more populated by Americans at the time of the M-A War than by Mexicans. We won them in a fair and legitimate war, albeit declared under dubious circumstances, and, thus, they are ours every bit as much as Alsace-Lorraine currently belongs to France. Anyone in the American southwest who wants to leave the US and join Mexico is welcome to do it. I doubt many would want to live in the squalor of Mexico as opposed to the prosperity of America.
As for illegal immigration. No, Mexicans have not been granted acceptence in the American population because they are "light enough," as you put it. They have gained some measure of acceptence because our government does not have the backbone to possibly "offend" the Hispanic voting population of the southwest and send all the illegals packing. They should not be allowed across the border in the first place, let alone stay long enough to gain acceptence. I, personally, would gladly trade "cheap labor" for secure borders any day of the week, and without second thought. If they want to become citizens, they're just going to have to do it the legal way, like my ancestors did. Not sneak across a stretch of desert.
As for Spanish. I am against a publically bilingual nation. Yes, they certainly can speak Spanish within the confines of their own homes and in dealings with each other. I, however, a speaker of English (obviously), the language of our Founding Fathers (yes, I know there were some German speakers scattered about, mainly in Penn.) and our de facto official language for the past 225 years, should not have the uncomfortable feeling of trying to find my way around in a town in my own country with signs printed in a FOREIGN language. My ancestors, and almost all of ours, considering we all speak English on this board, either knew or had to learn English upon arrival in order to survive. Yes, they could use their native language when dealing with each other, but if they wanted to assimilate into American society (which they did; the new immigrants seemingly do not), they would have to learn English. I should certainly not be paying extra taxes because schools have to hire Spanish-speaking teachers to teach illegal immigrants who have no wish to learn English.
Michael E Johnson
Banned
--I didn't know that Americans ever committed any sort of "genocide" against the Mexicans. The Mexican population is mostly of Spanish descent. The closest America came to a genocide was against Indian populations in the Great Plains. Even the Indian population of Mexico is different from the former Indian population of America. Most Indians in Mexico descend from Aztec origins. Thus, the American western lands never belonged to those same Indian groups that may or may not sneak across our southern border.----
Actually the Mexican population is mostly of mestizo descent which is a mix of Indian and Spanish.When I'm referring to genocide I'm not just talking about the US in regard to the destrution of native socities that happened in Mexico,Central America ,the Caribbean and South America.So please dont let semantics regarding the terms I use bog down my point-It still would be poetic justice to see a "European" country like the US have its character changed by people who are partially descendents of " Indians" (no matter where there from).Even if the way its changed is largely from a European soucrce-the Spanish language.
Actually the Mexican population is mostly of mestizo descent which is a mix of Indian and Spanish.When I'm referring to genocide I'm not just talking about the US in regard to the destrution of native socities that happened in Mexico,Central America ,the Caribbean and South America.So please dont let semantics regarding the terms I use bog down my point-It still would be poetic justice to see a "European" country like the US have its character changed by people who are partially descendents of " Indians" (no matter where there from).Even if the way its changed is largely from a European soucrce-the Spanish language.
Michael E Johnson
Banned
--Genocide that made america- sigh!---
gen·o·cide [ jénnə sd ]
noun
murder of an entire ethnic group: the systematic killing of all the people from a national, ethnic, or religious group, or an attempt to do this
[Mid-20th century. Coined from Greek genos “race” + -cide.]
1 entry found for genocide.
Entry: massacre
Function: noun
Definition: killing
Synonyms: annihilation, assassination, bloodbath, bloodshed, butchery, carnage, decimation, extermination, genocide, internecion, murder, slaughter, slaying
Concept: killing
Source: Roget's Interactive Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.0.0)
Copyright © 2004 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved
What am I missing? Perhaps your saying that what happened to native Americans wasnt deliberate in all cases or that there are still some left? Either way considering how many died- genocide is still the appropriate term.
gen·o·cide [ jénnə sd ]
noun
murder of an entire ethnic group: the systematic killing of all the people from a national, ethnic, or religious group, or an attempt to do this
[Mid-20th century. Coined from Greek genos “race” + -cide.]
1 entry found for genocide.
Entry: massacre
Function: noun
Definition: killing
Synonyms: annihilation, assassination, bloodbath, bloodshed, butchery, carnage, decimation, extermination, genocide, internecion, murder, slaughter, slaying
Concept: killing
Source: Roget's Interactive Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.0.0)
Copyright © 2004 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved
What am I missing? Perhaps your saying that what happened to native Americans wasnt deliberate in all cases or that there are still some left? Either way considering how many died- genocide is still the appropriate term.
Walter_Kaufmann said:
I agree with much of what you're saying Walt, but I fail to see what we have to lose as a society by making this a bilingual (maybe even multilingual) country. As Mexico and other Latin American nations gradually become more fully developed nations with stable non-oppressive governments, we will trade more with them and develop alliances (and greatly improve relations with them, which have been damaged over the years). If Americans were to learn Spanish and adopt it as a second language, that process could be sped up immensely, and we might come that much closer to acquiring new Hispanic-populated territories. Simply put, adopting Spanish as a second language over time may lead to us acquiring even more power than we have now. It may finally help us to create a true United States of America
As for teaching illegal immigrants in just Spanish and not having people assimilate: That's definitely a problem. But I don't think we have that much to lose in the long run by having people learn more than just English, provided that it's done to promote our interests rather than those of a few Mexican illegal immigrants and special interest/fringe groups like MEChA.
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Michael E Johnson said:
What are you talking about? I never said the genocide of the Indians of the Great Plans never happened. It did happen and it was horrible and wrong. I said that I don't see why there's any poetic justice in illegal Mexicans wading across the Rio Grande. I said that they should neither be ignored, nor helped by our government. They should be sent back. If I slip illegally into Great Britain, I'd fully expect to be deported. I would not expect to be offered government-subsidized housing and money for my healthcare.
POTUS P.Diffin said:
Sorry to seem sort of abrasive, but I fail to see what we have to gain. We've had our own countries for 200 years and I think we're doing just fine on our own.
Walter_Kaufmann said:
Good point. However, if we were to adopt Spanish as a second language, we'd be able to communicate better with Latin American nations and could thus gain new allies, territories, etc. over time. Of course, I'm Hispanic so I'm already bilingual and biased towards promoting bilingualism to begin with.
Michael E Johnson
Banned
What am I missing? Perhaps your saying that what happened to native Americans wasnt deliberate in all cases or that there are still some left? Either way considering how many died- genocide is still the appropriate term is in response to.
"--Norman
Member Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 103
Genocide that made america- sigh!---"
"--Norman
Member Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 103
Genocide that made america- sigh!---"