Sky Captain as an ATL

possible spoilers



First about the movie-for me it was a mixed bag. The effects lived up to my expectations but some of the acting and plotline did not. I understand that this movie was one giant homage to "Flash Gordon" sci-fi but certain aspects were still updated-like a woman in charge of a military operation- so why no black faces in Manhattan ( although I think I saw a black man walking by on Sky Captain's base-maybe not )? Some people complained about no black faces on the Titanic when it was released in 1997 however that was historically correct as Titanic was meant to be- ( despite false rumors at the time that "negro stokers" were involved in accosting passengers on the doomed ship.) In a 21st century retro-homage though I think some black faces would have been cool.



Now "seriously" how do we get to the world of Sky Capatin which aside from the obvious major technological differences seems to have several political and social differences as well. The Hindenburgh III docking at the Empire State building in 1939? We know from the movie that there was a WWI-but what was the result? Did Germany win or lose? I spyed the name Franklin Roosevelt in one of the on screen newpapers ads and one of the characters mentioned Tojo but nary a mention of Hitler. The world of Sky Captain seems militarized and perhaps even on the brink of war but it doesnt seems to be with the Nazis.So lets treat it like an ATL-Whats the pod? How did the world of Sky Captain get where its at in 1939? What differences did you notice. Any and all ideas appreciated.

Hindenburg III seems a bit curious - what happened to I and II ? One assumes they haven't crashed but have been superceded by larger models, but why call each one Hindenburg ?

Grey Wolf

This is what spoils movies for me.If you DONT like the film EVEn by implication not direct statements don't be mean hearted and keep others from enjoying the film.It's NOT GONE WITH THE WIND for pete sake!It' s light hearted adventure.DONT like it? Fine! DONT be a troll and try to be like so-called film critics who only want serious constructive films. Give me a break Michael!

My own opinion was that it was a visually stunning movie that badly needed a rewrite on the script. I found the storyline to be incomprehensible at times. And I was severely disappointed that there wasn't a big aerial battle between all those Brit hover carriers and... someone.
As for the lack of black faces... maybe there was no African slave trade in this ATL... let's put a positive spin on it...

Possible POD:

One of the characters mentions the villian setting up his unit 'before the first world war'. Up until WW2 started, the first one was always referred to as 'The Great War', so--assuming that this isn't just some continuity goof by the writer -I'm thinking that they've already had WW2 (or some variation thereof). This new 'european war' took out Hitler but they haven't gotten around to japan (yet)--hence the reason why German ships and scientists are allowed into the U.S. with apparently little or no difficulties and Hitler never mentioned once but Tojo is still around. If I had to take a guess, I'll say that WW2 took place in late 20's or early 30's in this TL.

Because of the effects of two world wars nearly back to back, technology (at least those with military applications) has leaped several decades ahead of OTL. But a lot is still new, so it's taking a while for it to trinkle down to civilian applications --hence the reason for funky amphibious planes being used by the military but blimps still being used in civilian air travel. Add in the fact that--just like Flash Gordon -a lot of the new tech was invented by the same small group of scientists (Totenkopf and Dex are both clearly seen as 'Tesla' like scientists --super brilliant scientists who dabble in everything).

Additional consequence of two major wars back to back is that some nations have (perhaps grudgedly) accepted the fact that women can be good in combat situations and have female soldiers and pilots in their military (hence the reason why Frankie is a commander of a British ship and she has a whole squad of female fighter pilots).

As for the Hindenburg 3--obviously #1 never blew up (or if it did, it was destroyed in such a way that it didn't take the whole blimp industry with it as in OTL--maybe during WW2?). Bigger and/or better models have been made in the intervening years. The movie specially mentions that #3 was on 'its maiden voyage' so all we have to do is come up with an explanation as to what happened to #2.

All I can think of at the moment.....

Sorry, I've been under tension lately. If I was too strong I apologize.BTW anyone read SF writer Gene Wolfe. He wrote a series of stories with variations on the title e.g. Island of Dr. Death, etc.Am I wrong? Also Did Wizard of OZ premiere at Radio City or elsewhere in NYC in 39. I assume the year in the film is 39.Nanking-NANJING?What happens to dirigible people when they leave the airship?I saw them going down a plank put on the top of the tower.How in real life would THIS be done?

OK, here's my take. My first thought was that WW1 happened as in OTL with the Germans losing, because a German newspaper shown in the movie has a real stock pic of a big Nazi eagle over the reischtag. Yet, this may be just because it was a cool art-deco looking eagle, as, if I remember correctly, the Hindenburg III did not have a nazi flag on it. The ease with which German scientists and airships enter the US doesn't mean anything because trade and travel was completely open between Nazi Germany and the USA right up to WW2.

Doc What, are you sure they referred to that earlier war as "WW1"?. If so, I like your idea of another WW2 being over and done with. This could explain the nazi-yet-not-as-nazi Germany and other differences. It would be a good idea to scan over the multitude of newspapers we see in the 'robots are attacking the world" montage and look for missing countries or pictures with clues. The characters mention fighting the Japanese in Nanking, so at least the Japanese seem to be up to no good. But you get no sense of a global war impending.

On the other hand, this is all pretty ridiculous as we really have to go back to the dawn of time and mess around with the laws of physicas so we could actually make things like the giant British sky carriers possible. It's not about the 1930's as they were, but the way those of us who watched all those old serials wished they were.

But I thought it was a hoot of a movie.

BTW, I had no problem with the name "Hindenburg III" on a 1939 German airship. It was absolutely impossible in anything remotely like our TL, regardless of whether or not "Hindenburg I" crashed, but that's not the point. I think the name was chosen because it evoked a doomed icon the late 1930's while at the same time evoking an undying mythical 1930's where things like zeppelins and secret hideouts last forever. "Graf Zeppelin" or "Luxemburg" (the name of the zep in Rocketeer) wouldn't have the same emotional value. Now "Kaiser Freidrich V" would have really been cool, however.

I found the movie to be a hoot as well, zoomar. Yes--it's silly and over the top and at least 3 laws of aerodynamics and physics were broken within the first 20 minutes but who cares?

Almost positive they said 'first world war'--I did a double take in the theatre when it was mentioned. Anybody else remember the line that was said when Polly is describing the origins of Unit 11?

The 'trivia' section on www.imdb.com has some really fascinating entries, including this one:

In the movie when they show all of the headliners from newspapers around the globe, you can see Godzilla's outline on the Tokyo newspaper.

One question--that 'graveyard of sunken ships' at the end--WHERE exactly was that place? I clearly saw both the 'Titanic' and the 'Venture' (the ship from 'King Kong'--complete with giant cage ) in that scene--so are we talking atlantic ocean or pacific ocean? Might be some interesting PODs from that as well.

At least one movie review that I read mentioned that a newspaper headline was dated sometime in the future - like 2040. The director is completely playing with the audience in regards to as when the story is set. I do remember seeing the Titanic and barely recall the Venture. I'll just has to see the movie for a second time!

I remember see the Godzilla cameo which would - most likely - put the movie as post-WWII. Actually it wouldn't be too hard to figure that this could be a world where there were two world wars - from the American point of view. There could be the First World War (to mention it as anything else would confuse alot of people - I mean, alot of audiences are just dumb people) 1914-1918, and then there was another war, I would say in the 1920s - to rip off Hector Bywater's Great Pacific War, strictly between Japan and the United States, 1922-1926.

The world has been at peace for a number of years, which is one reason for the rise of Skycaptain and his Flying Legion, which probably could be some paramilitary organization called upon by the League of Nations in times of trouble.

David S Poepoe said:

At least one movie review that I read mentioned that a newspaper headline was dated sometime in the future - like 2040. The director is completely playing with the audience in regards to as when the story is set. I do remember seeing the Titanic and barely recall the Venture. I'll just has to see the movie for a second time!

I remember see the Godzilla cameo which would - most likely - put the movie as post-WWII. Actually it wouldn't be too hard to figure that this could be a world where there were two world wars - from the American point of view. There could be the First World War (to mention it as anything else would confuse alot of people - I mean, alot of audiences are just dumb people) 1914-1918, and then there was another war, I would say in the 1920s - to rip off Hector Bywater's Great Pacific War, strictly between Japan and the United States, 1922-1926.

The world has been at peace for a number of years, which is one reason for the rise of Skycaptain and his Flying Legion, which probably could be some paramilitary organization called upon by the League of Nations in times of trouble.

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OK, but why were SkyCaptain and Franky fighting the Japanese in 1937 Nanking, with "the American Volunteer Squadron" - which I took to be the Fighting Tigers. I would think that if a 20's war between the USA and Japan happened, the fate of China would have been essentially settled before 1937.


Here's an oddball idea for the ATL. Does the movie ever mention specifically the existence of the USA as an independent nation? Do we see any US flags or airplanes with US insignia on them, etc? Maybe we are in some alternate world where the British Empire still rules, alhtough America is obviously a very important and self-governing part of the Empire/Commonwealth. After all Sky Captain himself is British and the British flying navy and its amphibious planes are pretty damn cool - presumably cooler than anything the colonials have. I could be all wet on this, but as they say in Missouri, show me.

That's why I'm thinking that this TL's version of WW2 didn't involve Japan just yet--although all the references to Nanking does make me think that things are still pretty hot.

Now that I think about it--I don't recall seeing an american flag anywhere. Did anybody else see one?

Dr What: Where was the Kong freighter, I saw the Titanic? Also ,is there any other site listing gems from the film?

ED(Mister):It that scene with all the ships, they do a quick scan of some of the ship's names. Look for a ship named 'Venture' and take a look at the deck. You'll see something looking like a big cage. It's there for only a few seconds but it's there.

www.imdb.com is fairly comprehensive when it comes to trivia and goofs and other info about movies--it's a viewer based site, so it's constantly being updated by people. Check up every few days or so as more and more people contribute stuff.

The official site http://www.skycaptain.com/ --they have all kinds of other stuff (like a game you can download)

David S Poepoe said:

At least one movie review that I read mentioned that a newspaper headline was dated sometime in the future - like 2040. The director is completely playing with the audience in regards to as when the story is set. I do remember seeing the Titanic and barely recall the Venture. I'll just has to see the movie for a second time!

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I originally thought it said "1989", but even with my contact lenses in it was pretty small and brief, so I probably just mistook a 3 for an 8. It's conceivable it takes place in an alternate timeline (Gernsback?) where "our" WWI never happened and the "first world war" they talked about was much later, though. If anyone goes to see this again, see if you can tell for sure what that date on the newspaper is...

Taking a look at the identical thread on s.h.w.i. gives us a few other things to go on:

1. Totenkopf hadn't been seen in 30 years since the end of the First World War. So that would make the most likely time of the movie 1948-49.

2. There was a First World War, 1914-1918, however the Nazi's most likely never came to power after.

3. There most likely could have been a 'Second World War' most likely a war between the US and Japan in the Pacific. This could be one reason Skycaptain was in Nanjing.

4. Since there was a Graf Zeppelin II in brief service before the outbreak of the Second World War, it wouldn't seem too improbable that the Zeppelin Company may reuse certain names. Since it appears that hydrogen is still used in airships one could probably assume that the doping formula for the Hindenburg I was not the same that was applied historically, which basically was rocket fuel and burned incredibly fast.

David S Poepoe said:

1. Totenkopf hadn't been seen in 30 years since the end of the First World War. So that would make the most likely time of the movie 1948-49.

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I'm pretty sure they said 20 years, not 30. So this would support a 1939 date, which is when "Wizard of Oz" came out and was probably the date on the newspaper.

David S Poepoe said:

Taking a look at the identical thread on s.h.w.i. gives us a few other things to go on:

1. Totenkopf hadn't been seen in 30 years since the end of the First World War. So that would make the most likely time of the movie 1948-49.

2. There was a First World War, 1914-1918, however the Nazi's most likely never came to power after.

3. There most likely could have been a 'Second World War' most likely a war between the US and Japan in the Pacific. This could be one reason Skycaptain was in Nanjing.

4. Since there was a Graf Zeppelin II in brief service before the outbreak of the Second World War, it wouldn't seem too improbable that the Zeppelin Company may reuse certain names. Since it appears that hydrogen is still used in airships one could probably assume that the doping formula for the Hindenburg I was not the same that was applied historically, which basically was rocket fuel and burned incredibly fast.

Click to expand...

1. Interesting. But I did think elsewhere there was reference to 1939. I thought it was only Polly's recollection, anyway, that it was 30 years since Totenkoph disappeared. She might have been wrong. BUt I have to admit a date for the film in 1948-49 gives one a lot more AH possibilities.

2. But I swear I saw a Nazi eagle on a newspaper. But given no swastikas on the Hindenburg III your explanation probably makes sense.

3. Yes, if the film is set in an AH 1949, the Nanking stuff could have been in that other WW2 between the US and Japan - heck for that matter it could have been involving nazi germany as well with the nazis now gone - perhaps merely ousted from power by Germans themselves.

4. Actually "Graf Zeppelin II" was named merely "Graf Zeppelin." Since it was intended as a replacement for the original Graf which had been laid up as a museum ship, it never bore the "II" on its hull. The "II" is just used in books and so forth to distinguish the two. Thus, while a third airship named Hindenburg would certainly be possible in 1949, it would probably just be called "Hindenburg". It's hard to believe zeps would still have hydrogen in 1949. I think they all just burned up in the movie because it was a lot cooler-looking than having them slowly drift to the ground with pieces falling off. One can over analyze these things.

There were a lot of technological things that didn't seem to make sense or argued an ATL.
1. The Zeppelin wasn't that out of place. If Germany had access to helium instead of hydrogren, Zeps would still have been practical.
2. The time period seems to be in the late 30's. The 'hi-tech' aircraft of the Sky Captain wasn't far removed from a P-40 (and was propellor driven)
3. The British flying carriers were a stretch. It didn't seem possible to keep them airborne. Even with one engine knocked out they stayed aloft.

It was a comic book written large. The enemy was sterotyped. The robots had the look of 30's era drawings.
The fact the Sky Captain had been fighting in China wasn't that odd. A lot of 'volunteers' were fighting there in our TL (including the Flying Tigers - which used the P-40, that seemed to be the basis for the Sky Captain a/c)

The movie was entertainment. You suspend logic and just enjoy the fun. You don't read comic books for their literary content and depth of their plots but for pure enjoyment. Let's not be like a lot of movie critics and nit-pick this film to death. It was intended to be a fun experience and that's what it was. I didn't spend a lot of time trying to discover all of the minor points.

dI was wiped out by this fxxxing machine. David Peopoe and others the date is 1939.First one paper has a date, then others. The second though is March 39.Polly mentions 2 March. Film has B26 and Lancaster planes and an island from Blackhawk comics.Tribute to Things to Come film.

I am continuing .I do not think there was a Nazi Eagle on the paper or anywhere.When Polly shows Joe a picture and we see it, I swear it was a tribute to the opening of CITIZEN KANE when we see the fence to Kane's mansion.Aircraft on the Brit carrier look like something possibly from Things to Come.