Chinese Colonization of SE Asia

Ulysses Orbis

Zheng He discovering the Americas is an AH cliche (the Chinese directly extracting Peruvian and Mexican silver), but it seems to me that expanding Chinese influence in Southeast Asia is much more plausible. There were several periods in which Vietnam was under Chinese control; and ethnic Chinese have been politically influential in Greater Indonesia: see the Lanfang Republic and the pirate Liang Daoming.

But these incursions never amounted to much, and the Chinese were outraced by the Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, French, and English. Even Taiwan, which as a small and proximate island would be a natural for conquest, wasn't colonized until the beginning of the Qing. I know that the Ming's isolationism prevented a repeat of Zheng He's voyages, but a Chinese empire in Southeast Asia still seems more likely than a Spanish Philippines or a British Australia.

Judging by the relative ease of conquest by the Europeans, isn't it plausible to have a permanent Chinese empire in Southeast Asia? Extending the Chinese occupation of Vietnam in the early 1400s seems like a start, but what changes are necessary for an empire in Malaysia, Indonesia, the Phillippines, Thailand, and Australia (rough descending order of plausibility)? Is a change in dynasties necessary? With a more interventionist China, what sort of colonial empire could emerge?
 

Intransigent Southerner

Ulysses Orbis said:
Judging by the relative ease of conquest by the Europeans
Click to expand...
Huh?

Anyways, the thing about Ming Vietnam was that it was entirely feasible to integrate Vietnam into the empire in the long term. There just wasn't the central support needed for the project after the Yongle Emperor's death, because what Vietnam had to offer wasn't worth the cost of occupation and integration. You'd have to have a series of militaristic emperors to prevent this. Another thing is that places like Taiwan or Southeast Asia are considered haiwai. During the Ming the Chinese believed that there were natural borders that China should follow, what with the deserts and the mountains to the west and the sea to the east. So the Qing conquest of Taiwan was unorthodox, and any Chinese maritime empire would be hegemonic as IOTL without an early POD.

Malaysia: Just keep the Sino-Malacca relationship going, because China isn't going to get rid of such a good ally. Malacca also makes Thailand more wary.
Indonesia: Way too big to conquer entirely. There are some theories there was a Chinese colony in Palembang briefly in the 14th century, so maybe have that maintained. Have hegemony over places like Semudera (after the defeat of Sikandar) be continued. This is all just about Sumatra, admittedly, but Sumatra, not Java, is the most important from the Chinese POV.
Philippines: Dunno.
Thailand: Was already kind of under Chinese hegemony OTL, have that grow somehow.
Australia: Uhhhh
 
XFE

XFE

Look up the Lanfang Republic, a Chinese dictatorship in Southeast Asia.
Australia isnt as hard as it may seem, it is generally accepted that Chinese fishermen frequented the area. The question is, why? It would just be barren wasteland. It isnt a trading stronghold like Malacca, nor is it strategically important like Vietnam. It is, to put it bluntly, completely useless.
 
Timaeus

Timaeus

Of course it's plausible, but you'd have to give a good reason for China to go out and build colonies in the first place.

Koxinga going on a conquest of the Philippines (or at least northern Luzon) is a possibility.
 
XFE

XFE

Timaeus said:
Of course it's plausible, but you'd have to give a good reason for China to go out and build colonies in the first place.

Koxinga going on a conquest of the Philippines (or at least northern Luzon) is a possibility.
Click to expand...
Koxinga already had his resources tied up in Taiwan though.
 

mlp

At best expect some sort of colonial policy similar to towards Manchuria in the late 19th century, as in pushing the Chinese into the south. Can't see an actual colonial empire.
 

Flocculencio

Donor
Ulysses Orbis said:
Judging by the relative ease of conquest by the Europeans, isn't it plausible to have a permanent Chinese empire in Southeast Asia? Extending the Chinese occupation of Vietnam in the early 1400s seems like a start, but what changes are necessary for an empire in Malaysia, Indonesia, the Phillippines, Thailand, and Australia (rough descending order of plausibility)? Is a change in dynasties necessary? With a more interventionist China, what sort of colonial empire could emerge?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure the Europeans found it *that* easy. Besides the Spanish in the Philippines, the Portuguese and Dutch were only able to get footholds. The Brtish managed to gain hegemony through very indirect initial contact and the Dutch East Indies outside Java weren't fully pacified until the 1920s.
 
XFE

XFE

Timaeus said:
He was able to make himself enough of a threat to make the Spanish refocus on Manila instead of quickly crushing the Moros and keeping the Moluccas. And he died at 37 of malaria.
Click to expand...

But then, the Philippines is no Taiwan. There would be considerably more effort required to push the Spanish and the natives out of Luzon. Koxinga needs a better backer in this case, say a stronger King of Fu in the South Ming.
 
kasumigenx

kasumigenx

Xianfeng Emperor said:
But then, the Philippines is no Taiwan. There would be considerably more effort required to push the Spanish and the natives out of Luzon. Koxinga needs a better backer in this case, say a stronger King of Fu in the South Ming.
Click to expand...

Koxinga was never the threat but rather the fact that at that time the People of Luzon were revolting against the Spanish and we have three leaders of that revolt, Maniago, Malong and Almazan and also the fact that the Spanish hold in Luzon was fragile due to the Inland Luzon being mostly pagan.

That is the POD of my timeline..
 

ZhugeLiang

Intransigent Southerner said:
Huh?

Anyways, the thing about Ming Vietnam was that it was entirely feasible to integrate Vietnam into the empire in the long term. There just wasn't the central support needed for the project after the Yongle Emperor's death, because what Vietnam had to offer wasn't worth the cost of occupation and integration. You'd have to have a series of militaristic emperors to prevent this. Another thing is that places like Taiwan or Southeast Asia are considered haiwai. During the Ming the Chinese believed that there were natural borders that China should follow, what with the deserts and the mountains to the west and the sea to the east. So the Qing conquest of Taiwan was unorthodox, and any Chinese maritime empire would be hegemonic as IOTL without an early POD.

Malaysia: Just keep the Sino-Malacca relationship going, because China isn't going to get rid of such a good ally. Malacca also makes Thailand more wary.
Indonesia: Way too big to conquer entirely. There are some theories there was a Chinese colony in Palembang briefly in the 14th century, so maybe have that maintained. Have hegemony over places like Semudera (after the defeat of Sikandar) be continued. This is all just about Sumatra, admittedly, but Sumatra, not Java, is the most important from the Chinese POV.
Philippines: Dunno.
Thailand: Was already kind of under Chinese hegemony OTL, have that grow somehow.
Australia: Uhhhh
Click to expand...

Malacca isn't hard, actually. This might be post-1900, but the thing is, if I remember right, detaching Sarawak and adding Singapore to Malaya would have created a Chinese-majority state.

Thus, the British didn't do that :p
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top
Top