Lee dies at Gettyburg?

Just remembered the theory that Lee was suffering from a heart attack during the battle and my rather charitable thought was why didn't the bastard keel over?

So WI the army of Northern Virginia loses its General on the final day of the battle?
 

jahenders

Banned
Longstreet would take command of the army and try to retreat to Virginia. However, once back there, it's unclear who Jeff Davis would put in command -- probably Joe Johnston or Beauregard, but Davis had some dislike for both. In either case, I think it's safe to assume that Davis would interfere more than with Lee.

Either might perform fairly well in the subsequent campaigns, but CSA morale would definitely take a blow and this (with greater desertions, etc) might shorten the war a bit.

Just remembered the theory that Lee was suffering from a heart attack during the battle and my rather charitable thought was why didn't the bastard keel over?

So WI the army of Northern Virginia loses its General on the final day of the battle?
 
How about how EARLY (which day) at that battle ? Also Lee maybe not dead but significantly incapacitated...

Picketts charge never made (manpower gain minor - morale difference probably more significant).

Longstreet supposedly wanted to withdraw and let the Union attack them at a better location -- a bloody Wilderness type battle that might have cost the Union more dearly and maybe a bigger (union) political loss (no won battle, major casualties, confeds still loose in northern territory) that would have had some (?) effect on the coming elections ? (and as usual all the 'butterfly wing' effects)

Grant was still taking Vicksburg, so as usual its muddy what significant overall effects - but him NOT facing Lee for all the meatgrinding battles later (but then could other confederate generals have done similar to what Lee did on the defensive ??)
 
Longstreet would take command of the army and try to retreat to Virginia. However, once back there, it's unclear who Jeff Davis would put in command -- probably Joe Johnston or Beauregard, but Davis had some dislike for both. In either case, I think it's safe to assume that Davis would interfere more than with Lee.

Either might perform fairly well in the subsequent campaigns, but CSA morale would definitely take a blow and this (with greater desertions, etc) might shorten the war a bit.

My guess is Davis would promote Longstreet to full general and allow him to retain command of the AONV. That would be the most logical thing to do.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
My guess is Davis would promote Longstreet to full general and allow him to retain command of the AONV. That would be the most logical thing to do.

Agreed. And it would keep him from having to place either Johnston or Beauregard, both of whom he detested, in command. This would cause both Johnston and Beauregard to become more angry with Davis, but that's a little like making the surface of Venus even more hot, so it probably wouldn't matter that much.
 
Longstreet would take command of the army and try to retreat to Virginia.

Difficult to say. It depends on when Lee dies and how. My impression from the OP is he drops dead in mid-stride in the early morning hours of Day 3.

On Day 1, it was mostly a meeting engagement of divisional commanders, starting with Heth followed up by Pender on the Union left flank, and later Rodes then Early on the Union right flank. Lee was in little position to do more than order a general attack once he finally reached the field.

On Day 2 his orders were mostly ineffectual except for the two present divisions of Longstreet's Corps, but unfortunately for Lee he wasn't being kept informed of the casualties building up in his army.

Hence, his almost surreal orders for Day 3 seemed to be for an army almost completely intact. And while Longstreet was able to convince Lee that Hood and McLaws' Divisions were in no condition to fight (and were needed to serve as the right flank anyway), Hill as usual was a command non-entity in terms of determining the state of his own badly battered corps.

Longstreet represented no panacea for the AoNV at Gettysburg. With a completely free hand, he could well have followed his own reeds and made his planned attack that he begged Lee to do (march around the Round Tops and flank the Union Army.

He does that, and the US Civil War has the Union Army in Richmond by Thanksgiving and the war ends no later than 1/1/1864!:eek:

However, once back there, it's unclear who Jeff Davis would put in command -- probably Joe Johnston or Beauregard


Have you considered Braxton Bragg?:eek: Davis valued loyalty above all, and no one supported Davis more than Bragg, save a now deceased Lee.

but Davis had some dislike for both.

Obsessive vendettas. Davis didn't hate in half measures.

In either case, I think it's safe to assume that Davis would interfere more than with Lee.

An unparalleled micro-manager. He left Lee alone because Lee knew how to do the big suckup, always kept him informed, was a national hero himself, and gave him lots of victories that helped balanced the near constant tale of woe in the West.

Either might perform fairly well in the subsequent campaigns, but CSA morale would definitely take a blow and this (with greater desertions, etc) might shorten the war a bit.

I doubt that with Johnston's caution and/or Beauregard's tactical incompetence Grant fails to turn their right flank and slip into Richmond. Game Over, 1864. The Wilderness? IDK. Bermuda Hundred will probably be OTL though.

How about how EARLY (which day) at that battle ? Also Lee maybe not dead but significantly incapacitated...

The OP says "final day of the battle".

Picketts charge never made (manpower gain minor - morale difference probably more significant).

The only way Pickett's Charge happens is if Longstreet stops a bullet:rolleyes: But again, if he does as HE wants, future historians will probably be asking why he DIDN'T do something like a frontal assault on the Federal Center, since the strength there was so "light" (5000 men), and because the Union troops would be too chicken:rolleyes: to redeploy their troops and re-enforce that center. That WAS Lee's thinking, after all. Still was one year later, according to his writings.

Longstreet supposedly wanted to withdraw and let the Union attack them at a better location

THERE WAS NONE. Just because you need a better place to defend from doesn't mean that it exists. Any other place risks the Union AotP cutting the AoNV from home.

-- a bloody Wilderness type battle that might have cost the Union more dearly and maybe a bigger (union) political loss (no won battle, major casualties, confeds still loose in northern territory) that would have had some (?) effect on the coming elections ? (and as usual all the 'butterfly wing' effects)

The nearest thing to a "Wilderness" or "Fredricksburg" in that region is Hancock Maryland, and even Lincoln would have seen that the AoNV trying to hold out there turns them into an enormous self-sustaining PoW camp. Vicksburg on steroids.

Grant was still taking Vicksburg, so as usual its muddy what significant overall effects - but him NOT facing Lee for all the meatgrinding battles later (but then could other confederate generals have done similar to what Lee did on the defensive ??)

Lee got where he was by audacity and audacity and audacity. Did I mention audacity? But with the arrival of Meade, he finally found an enemy upon whom he couldn't put the "scare". With Grant in the Wilderness against second-stringers, and please note the Wilderness was very nearly an utter disaster for the AoNV, Grant gets to Spotsylvania Court House first, and Game Over.

My guess is Davis would promote Longstreet to full general and allow him to retain command of the AONV. That would be the most logical thing to do.

IF Longstreet makes it out OK by withdrawing before Day 3, yes. But when was Davis ever logical about his command appointments?

Agreed. And it would keep him from having to place either Johnston or Beauregard, both of whom he detested, in command. This would cause both Johnston and Beauregard to become more angry with Davis, but that's a little like making the surface of Venus even more hot, so it probably wouldn't matter that much.

:p:D
 
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The nearest thing to a "Wilderness" or "Fredricksburg" in that region is Hancock Maryland, and even Lincoln would have seen that the AoNV trying to hold out there turns them into an enormous self-sustaining PoW camp. Vicksburg on steroids.

:p:D

As I recall after the battle the ANV successfully withdrew to an excellent defensive position along Salisbury Ridge, just on the Maryland side of the Potomac, with more than adequate lines of communication.

Lee, and most historians agree with this, wanted Meade to attack. Even after the damage done to the ANV at Gettysburg, Lee was confident of victory.

It is the sort of engagement that Longstreet had been advocating.
If Longstreet takes command, withdraws on the morning of Day 3, reaches Salisbury Ridge and inflicts a second Fredericksburg on the AOP.
IRL the AOP might well have attacked the position if Lee had not withdrawn over the river on 13/14 July.

Well ... Butterfly away!
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Even Longstreet still believed in the superiority of the rebel infantry;

As I recall after the battle the ANV successfully withdrew to an excellent defensive position along Salisbury Ridge, just on the Maryland side of the Potomac, with more than adequate lines of communication.

Lee, and most historians agree with this, wanted Meade to attack. Even after the damage done to the ANV at Gettysburg, Lee was confident of victory.

It is the sort of engagement that Longstreet had been advocating.
If Longstreet takes command, withdraws on the morning of Day 3, reaches Salisbury Ridge and inflicts a second Fredericksburg on the AOP.
IRL the AOP might well have attacked the position if Lee had not withdrawn over the river on 13/14 July.

Well ... Butterfly away!

Even Longstreet still believed in the superiority of the rebel infantry over the AUS, however, as late as his attack at Knoxville in 1863.

Not surprisingly, they lost.

Against Burnside.

Longstreet is no more a magic bullet than Lee.

Best,
 
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As I recall after the battle the ANV successfully withdrew to an excellent defensive position along Salisbury Ridge, just on the Maryland side of the Potomac, with more than adequate lines of communication. Lee, and most historians agree with this, wanted Meade to attack. Even after the damage done to the ANV at Gettysburg, Lee was confident of victory.

It is the sort of engagement that Longstreet had been advocating.
If Longstreet takes command, withdraws on the morning of Day 3, reaches Salisbury Ridge and inflicts a second Fredericksburg on the AOP.
IRL the AOP might well have attacked the position if Lee had not withdrawn over the river on 13/14 July.

Well ... Butterfly away!

The butterfly says: glug-glug!

Starting on the early afternoon of July 4th, the rains came in. By July 5th, the heavy rains turned into a once-in-a-century torrential downpour that kept on going and going and going. Lee didn't cross the Potomac until 13/14 July because his fords had been obliterated by the flooding waters. Meade could not attack because a flood plain had widened into a lake that was at some points over eight feet deep! The very same flood that save Lee made the grand assault by the AotP that Lee wanted impossible.
 
The butterfly says: glug-glug!

Starting on the early afternoon of July 4th, the rains came in. By July 5th, the heavy rains turned into a once-in-a-century torrential downpour that kept on going and going and going. Lee didn't cross the Potomac until 13/14 July because his fords had been obliterated by the flooding waters. Meade could not attack because a flood plain had widened into a lake that was at some points over eight feet deep! The very same flood that save Lee made the grand assault by the AotP that Lee wanted impossible.

And fixing Lee in place and waiting for his supply lines to collapse plays to the North's strength, they can wait for the Confedarcy to fall apart out West without reinforcements.
 
And fixing Lee in place and waiting for his supply lines to collapse plays to the North's strength, they can wait for the Confedercy to fall apart out West without reinforcements.

Even if the rains hadn't come, Lee's defensive line on the Potomac was limited by the fact that his entire artillery ammunition supply was completely exhausted, EXCEPT for his mostly untapped canister supplies. While that would have been God awful for attacking Union infantry, it wouldn't have been what the Southrons faced at Pickett's Charge. No shells, no solid shot, only very short ranged canister. Meaning not many salvoes before the assault wave hits (assuming they don't collapse and retreat).

Oh, and NO Confederate counter-battery fire. OTOH, the Confederate ordnance re-supply wagons were on their way, but the nearest railhead was all the way down in SW Virginia in Staunton. But the wagons were getting closer and IIRC arrived just as Lee was getting back across the Potomac.
 
Cult of Lee?

If he had died then, would the south still practically worship the ground Colonel Lee walked on? I think not; he was effective before Gettysburg, but his legend comes from his battles with Grant.
 
If he had died then, would the south still practically worship the ground Colonel Lee walked on? I think not; he was effective before Gettysburg, but his legend comes from his battles with Grant.

I disagree, by Gettysburg his legend is in full strength. Considering he lost to Grant I doubt its conduct helped his reputation. It is the other way around , his earlier reputation helped save his later reputation while Southerners made excuses on why he lost.
 
I disagree, by Gettysburg his legend is in full strength. Considering he lost to Grant I doubt its conduct helped his reputation. It is the other way around , his earlier reputation helped save his later reputation while Southerners made excuses on why he lost.

Thanks to Jubal Early, the Lost Causers blame(d), in decreasing order:

Longstreet
Stuart
Ewell
Heth
Pickett
Hill
Rodes
Early (he couldn't write ALL the Lost Causer books:p)
All the cavalry commanders who DIDN'T accompany Stuart
Anderson
Pender

This is a POLITICAL list, not one meant for serious history.

TF, you mixed up your 'villes, I think. Longstreet attacked Burnside at Knoxville. Sepp

I was wondering that myself. And Suvorov wouldn't have beaten Burnside in those impossible circumstances, never mind Longstreet or Lee.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
True ... too much going on.

I was wondering that myself. And Suvorov wouldn't have beaten Burnside in those impossible circumstances, never mind Longstreet or Lee.

True ... too much going on.

Especially since I just posted a section of BROS dealing with an "alternate" Knoxville campaign.:eek:

Best,
 
I disagree, by Gettysburg his legend is in full strength. Considering he lost to Grant I doubt its conduct helped his reputation. It is the other way around , his earlier reputation helped save his later reputation while Southerners made excuses on why he lost.
Indeed. The Confederacy loses after his death (just like they lost OTL, only with the timing changed), and the Lost Causer temptation will be to blame it not on Lee, but on Lee's death. The meme will be "had Lee not died at Gettysburg, surely he would have snatched victory from the jaws of defeat, and saved the Confederacy."

The Lost Causers will probably claim that only the death of Lee and Jackson within a few months of each other allowed the "Damn Yankees" to win, and both will have even more of a cult of martyrdom around them.

As for successors, remember that Johnston has just failed to relieve Vicksburg, so Davis will be even less willing to entrust him with command than OTL. I agree that Longstreet and Bragg are the two most likely options.
 
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