Sino-French war of 1884 question

Tanc49 · May 15, 2015

Hello,

I have a quick question about the Franco-Chinese war. Was there much partisan action?

I find it very difficult to find non-French sources on the subject given I don't speak vietnamese or chinese.

From what I gather, facing the French were conscripts who ran as soon as they approached and Black Flags which were basically an overpumped Chinese Army black ops.
What I can't find is how the population reacted to the conquest. What I find is that they were happy to be liberated but that's from a French source of 1886 so I'm taking that with a lot of salt.

Anybody with more info?

Freelancer · May 15, 2015

Almost none

Falecius · May 15, 2015

D.G.E. Hall, in his History of Southeast Asia, notes in passing that there was "considerable agitation" in Annam and Tonkin against French occupation, without details. I take this as referring to insurgency/partisan action, although I would expect that both the French government and the Vietnamese court would have seen that as simple banditry at the time. Sadly, I cannot find more.

Tanc49 · May 15, 2015

Falecius said:
D.G.E. Hall, in his History of Southeast Asia, notes in passing that there was "considerable agitation" in Annam and Tonkin against French occupation, without details. I take this as referring to insurgency/partisan action, although I would expect that both the French government and the Vietnamese court would have seen that as simple banditry at the time. Sadly, I cannot find more.

Thanks a lot for checking!

Seems like there was residual Black Flag activity until 1887 at least and the Cuan Vong movement to restore the power of the King until the late 1890's, although how much of a grassroot movement that is, that's the big question. It seems to have had a moment in 1885 but quickly disappeared when a new king paid lip service to the French. After that it seems it was a good excuse for local mandarins to rebel against French but not sure if it was actually popular resistance like you could have seen in Algeria around the same time

Falecius · May 15, 2015

Tanc49 said:
Thanks a lot for checking!

Seems like there was residual Black Flag activity until 1887 at least and the Cuan Vong movement to restore the power of the King until the late 1890's, although how much of a grassroot movement that is, that's the big question. It seems to have had a moment in 1885 but quickly disappeared when a new king paid lip service to the French. After that it seems it was a good excuse for local mandarins to rebel against French but not sure if it was actually popular resistance like you could have seen in Algeria around the same time

Sounds about right AFAIK.
I am not sure that Algeria is a useful comparison. Most of the Islamic world has a deeply rooted tradition of communities as socio-political agencies in which legitimacy is assumed to lie, as opposed to the central role of the state both in Modern Europe and in the parts of East Asia where Confucian tradition is dominant, which includes Vietnam. It's more complicated than that (I am aware that the notion of Heavenly Mandate includes the possibility of violent overthrow of the incumbent dynasty by grassroots insurrection, which happened repeatedly in Vietnamese history) but I am under the impression that large peasant insurgency in Vietnam in the 1880s would have required input from the above.

Tanc49 · May 19, 2015

So basically, the authority in Islamic world was much more fragmented than in Vietnam is what you're saying?

Meaning you'd have to beat every single tribe chief rather than a single king, that makes sense.

Thanks a lot for all the info

Falecius · May 19, 2015

Tanc49 said:
So basically, the authority in Islamic world was much more fragmented than in Vietnam is what you're saying?

Meaning you'd have to beat every single tribe chief rather than a single king, that makes sense.

Thanks a lot for all the info

Depends a lot of where and when (most of the Islamic world was not "tribal" in any meaningful sense), but basically yes.
What I meant is that Islamic theory of "state" comprised a non-statal public sphere that was in principle able to act on its own right. Nothing of the sort, AFAIK, exists in Confucianism.

Admiral Matt · May 19, 2015

Falecius said:
Depends a lot of where and when (most of the Islamic world was not "tribal" in any meaningful sense), but basically yes.
What I meant is that Islamic theory of "state" comprised a non-statal public sphere that was in principle able to act on its own right. Nothing of the sort, AFAIK, exists in Confucianism.

That's broadly true in the ideology. In practice of course, everyone was entirely aware that the common folk could, would, and when pressed should even be expected to, take mass action on their own behalf. From a certain angle Confucianism as state ideology had preventing this as its raison d'être, by giving heads of farming households (the class representing the greatest potential for rebellion) exactly what they wanted and addressing in advance as many of their grievances as possible.

fasquardon · May 19, 2015

Tanc49 said:
I have a quick question about the Franco-Chinese war. Was there much partisan action?

I have read passing references to significant levels of "banditry" in Northern Vietnam post-conquest.

fasquardon

Tanc49 · May 22, 2015

So, I've done some research and here's what I got.

There was a resistance, led by the mandarins and local rulers. Although it was strong-ish in Annam, it seems to have been mostly in the peripherical regions. It vanished quite quickly, the vast bulk of it was gone by 1886 and I would dare say a bit of it, the local ruler part especially, might have been to gain power in a war-torn region. Ban Dinh, in south Annam seems to have been a big center of institutional resistance though.

I found vietnamese sources in English and it seems saying it was more than that is more part of a national epic than fact. Those were guerilla fighters with little to no training (one guy is noted because he put an emphasis on rank and following orders which was astonishing to everybody else).
In the North, there were also the Black Flags, troups of mercenaries, mostly Chinese but not just Chinese, recruiting the best and brightest, forming them and then fighting using Krupp weaponry. Those were the real danger but they were more tied to China.

After the Sino-French war, the mandarin from Yunnan, south China, closed their borders, severing their supply lines and the Black Flag went full on into banditry.

If anybody has other stuff, don't hesitate to share and correct

Falecius · May 23, 2015

Admiral Matt said:
That's broadly true in the ideology. In practice of course, everyone was entirely aware that the common folk could, would, and when pressed should even be expected to, take mass action on their own behalf. From a certain angle Confucianism as state ideology had preventing this as its raison d'être, by giving heads of farming households (the class representing the greatest potential for rebellion) exactly what they wanted and addressing in advance as many of their grievances as possible.

I agree. By the way, Vietnam has a remarkably rich history of major peasant rebellions.

Admiral Matt · May 23, 2015

Falecius said:
I agree. By the way, Vietnam has a remarkably rich history of major peasant rebellions.

China too. Might even have caught it from them.

The Sui dynasty was taken down shortly after a three year stretch in which there were around three thousand rebellions. The Ming, where we have better records, had it even worse - averaging over fourteen thousand per year for a decade and a half.

Tanc49 · May 27, 2015

China too. Might even have caught it from them.

The Sui dynasty was taken down shortly after a three year stretch in which there were around three thousand rebellions. The Ming, where we have better records, had it even worse - averaging over fourteen thousand per year for a decade and a half.

Well, peasants uprising can go both ways, especially if a newcomer can "liberate" you. It seems a common theme, even in modern French source that the expeditionary force had strong support from the local population. It is not that hard to believe as Tonkin was between China and Annam and under kinda influence of both and I'm not sure either exercised a lot of control on it except for tax purposes.

After that, doesn't seem like there's any massive uprising until WWII. Probably sporadic stuff, as always, but nothing on the scale of Algeria or Madagascar. Am I wrong? Is there anything major I'm missing?

I have another question, does anybody know why the French chose Fort Bayard for a concession at the end of the XIXth century rather than Hainan? Fort Bayard (Kong Tchéou) is a backwater whereas Hainan controls the whole bay and could have been a strong counterwieght to Formose (Taiwan)

Any taker?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan

Falecius · May 27, 2015

Tanc49 said:
Well, peasants uprising can go both ways, especially if a newcomer can "liberate" you. It seems a common theme, even in modern French source that the expeditionary force had strong support from the local population. It is not that hard to believe as Tonkin was between China and Annam and under kinda influence of both and I'm not sure either exercised a lot of control on it except for tax purposes.

After that, doesn't seem like there's any massive uprising until WWII. Probably sporadic stuff, as always, but nothing on the scale of Algeria or Madagascar. Am I wrong? Is there anything major I'm missing?

I have another question, does anybody know why the French chose Fort Bayard for a concession at the end of the XIXth century rather than Hainan? Fort Bayard (Kong Tchéou) is a backwater whereas Hainan controls the whole bay and could have been a strong counterwieght to Formose (Taiwan)

Any taker?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan

Potential for commercial (and perhaps not only that) penetration into mainland China, I would guess.
Hainan is huge and, I gather, wasn't very rich. Perhaps a headache to administer? China would also be unhappier about losing control of a larger territory.

I read something about large-ish insurrections in Bo Nan province of Annam in the thirties, but I can't recover details.

Tanc49 · May 28, 2015

I read something about large-ish insurrections in Bo Nan province of Annam in the thirties, but I can't recover details.

This thread is really helping me in my amateurish researches! I found two more uprising, the Thái Nguyên uprising of 1917 which had 500 people and lasted six days and the Yen Bai uprising of 1930 which lasted less than two weeks (12 days if I'm correct)