Alternate roles for George McClellan.

Darth_Kiryan

We all know what happened in OTL to George McClellan. He was not the most successful general...i would say mostly because his his age and so much was thrust upon him.

....that said, what other roles would suit him. And given that he did seem to be a prodigy of sorts. He could have been an engineer in the Army, or perhaps even a Chief of Staff. Or maybe even a corps commander(most curious about this one, of him being in a subordinate position in the army)? How would McClellan fit in such roles?
 

TFSmith121

Banned
His talents seem to lie in the admnistrative or service

Darth_Kiryan said:
We all know what happened in OTL to George McClellan. He was not the most successful general...i would say mostly because his his age and so much was thrust upon him.

....that said, what other roles would suit him. And given that he did seem to be a prodigy of sorts. He could have been an engineer in the Army, or perhaps even a Chief of Staff. Or maybe even a corps commander(most curious about this one, of him being in a subordinate position in the army)? How would McClellan fit in such roles?
Click to expand...

His talents seem to lie in the administrative or service side, rather than as a combat commander. He was certainly not an A.A. Humphreys.

To be fair, he was successful against the rebels in West Virginia (geography helped) and at least held his own Virginia and Maryland as an army commander on the defensive (he had some able subordinates, most of who get overlooked in the McClellan go round).

The questions are a) if McDowell is to be relieved as field commander in the east in 1861, than by who?; and b) if Scott is to be relieved as general-in-chief in 1861, than by who?

Setting aside GBM as the obvious choice (for his abilities and his prewar connections with Lincoln), personally, my choice for G-in-C would have been JKF Mansfield; with a strong G-in-C, McClellan's problems as an army commander might not have been so marked (basically, this is what I suggest in BROS).

Failing that, GBM seems best suited as a deputy to Thomas in the AG's Department, or - perhaps - if McDowell had been allowed to retain command of what became the Army of the Potomac, as a corps commander; presumably the I Corps in place of McDowell. This places him among peers that include (presumably) Sumner, Heintzelman, and Keyes.

The other possibility would be to leave him in the west and DC Buell as a division and then prospective corps commander in the east; this would put GBM in as commander of the Army of the Ohio in 1862, rather than Buell.

In which case McClellan would report to Halleck, places him among peers that include Grant, Thomas, and (potentially) Pope or Curtis.

My guess is his reputation would be much better if he had served as a corps commander after West Virginia, and before any army-level service.

Best,
 
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Locke01

Darth_Kiryan said:
We all know what happened in OTL to George McClellan. He was not the most successful general...i would say mostly because his his age and so much was thrust upon him.

....that said, what other roles would suit him. And given that he did seem to be a prodigy of sorts. He could have been an engineer in the Army, or perhaps even a Chief of Staff. Or maybe even a corps commander(most curious about this one, of him being in a subordinate position in the army)? How would McClellan fit in such roles?
Click to expand...

George did not have a knack for getting along with superiors, and he just didn't seem to be fitted out for field command, even when it was on a small scale. This is a pity, because he actually seemed to be quite gifted at campaign planning. And his issues with transitioning into a hard war stance might have doomed his chances for advancement had he had to work his way up the chain of command like Grant, Sherman, or Thomas.

On balance, the best thing to do, operating from the benefit of hindsight, would be to set up a command in the rear for McClellan. Call it the Military Division of the North or some such, comprised of the military departments In New York and Pennsylvania and so forth, and charge him with the training of all the army forces meant for the Eastern theater. That might have been the best use off his administrative and organizational talents while keeping him out operational command. He could run the Civil War equivalent of TRADOC and Army Forces Command.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Actually, that would be the job of the Adjutant-General's department,

Locke01 said:
George did not have a knack for getting along with superiors, and he just didn't seem to be fitted out for field command, even when it was on a small scale. This is a pity, because he actually seemed to be quite gifted at campaign planning. And his issues with transitioning into a hard war stance might have doomed his chances for advancement had he had to work his way up the chain of command like Grant, Sherman, or Thomas.

On balance, the best thing to do, operating from the benefit of hindsight, would be to set up a command in the rear for McClellan. Call it the Military Division of the North or some such, comprised of the military departments In New York and Pennsylvania and so forth, and charge him with the training of all the army forces meant for the Eastern theater. That might have been the best use off his administrative and organizational talents while keeping him out operational command. He could run the Civil War equivalent of TRADOC and Army Forces Command.
Click to expand...

Actually, that would be the job of the Adjutant-General's department, which is why I suggested him as a deputy to Lorenzo Thomas.

You are also suggesting an operational training role, which was done - somewhat - with the concept of Silas Casey's "Provisional Division" for training as part of the Army of the Potomac, and (to a degree) the cavalry school at Carilisle and the pre-war artillery school at Fort Monroe; it also mirrors some of the OCS-equivalents created when the USCTs were formed.

It is certainly an interesting idea, but to do it in 1862 means jumping the gun in terms of professional military education by about two decades, as well as insititutional conflicts with the existing service arms (Adjutant-General, Ordnance, etc); the School of Application for Infantry and Cavalry (what became the Command & General Staff College) was not founded until 1881, and the Army War College in 1901; the chiefs of bureaux for infantry, cavalry, and artillery were all created around the same time, and lasted, in one form or the other, until 1942, when AGF was created.

Basically, the role you envision for McClellan was not really recognized as such in the 1860s...

Best,
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
McClellan's administrative and organizational skill would have made him an ideal candidate for Chief-of-Staff. Unfortunately, McClellan's ego and fervent desire to be applauded would have made him a horrible candidate for Chief-of-Staff.
 

Locke01

TFSmith121 said:
Actually, that would be the job of the Adjutant-General's department, which is why I suggested him as a deputy to Lorenzo Thomas.

You are also suggesting an operational training role, which was done - somewhat - with the concept of Silas Casey's "Provisional Division" for training as part of the Army of the Potomac, and (to a degree) the cavalry school at Carilisle and the pre-war artillery school at Fort Monroe; it also mirrors some of the OCS-equivalents created when the USCTs were formed.

It is certainly an interesting idea, but to do it in 1862 means jumping the gun in terms of professional military education by about two decades, as well as insititutional conflicts with the existing service arms (Adjutant-General, Ordnance, etc); the School of Application for Infantry and Cavalry (what became the Command & General Staff College) was not founded until 1881, and the Army War College in 1901; the chiefs of bureaux for infantry, cavalry, and artillery were all created around the same time, and lasted, in one form or the other, until 1942, when AGF was created.

Basically, the role you envision for McClellan was not really recognized as such in the 1860s...

Best,
Click to expand...

Foiled again. I commend you upon a well-reasoned response. :)
 

Major Major

McClellan had been a very able, if frustrated, railway president. As President of the Ohio and Mississippi Railroad he had saved a significant Middle Western transportation line from collapsing after the Panic of 1857/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio_and_Mississippi_Railroad

Therefore, he should be put in charge of a key element of the armies: the United States Military Railroad:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Military_Railroad

Its duties can be expanded to building a transcontinental rail line under a stimulus plan (which will reduce the possibility of a secessionist Pacific States of America or State of Deseret).
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Except that:

Major Major said:
McClellan had been a very able, if frustrated, railway president. As President of the Ohio and Mississippi Railroad he had saved a significant Middle Western transportation line from collapsing after the Panic of 1857/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio_and_Mississippi_Railroad

Therefore, he should be put in charge of a key element of the armies: the United States Military Railroad:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Military_Railroad

Its duties can be expanded to building a transcontinental rail line under a stimulus plan (which will reduce the possibility of a secessionist Pacific States of America or State of Deseret).
Click to expand...

1) The Army had plenty of excellent railroaders - Herman Haupt, for example; and 2) the TCR was not a military priority in 1861-62...

Of course, it might be in a "different" 1862, which is something I've been thinking off for BROS...great minds think alike.:)

Best,
 

Rich Rostrom

TFSmith121 said:
...his prewar connections with Lincoln...
Click to expand...

Say what? McClellan probably knew Lincoln in Illinois (they were both important men), but he was a partisan Democrat and ally of Stephen Douglas. The Lincoln-Douglas Debates originated in a campaign tour by Douglas, who traveled in a private train provided by Vice President McClellan of the Illinois Central Railroad.

(Lincoln followed Douglas around the state, responding to his speeches, and Douglas was forced to agree to formal confrontations.)
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Lincoln actually worked for McClellan as counsel for the IRRR

Rich Rostrom said:
Say what? McClellan probably knew Lincoln in Illinois (they were both important men), but he was a partisan Democrat and ally of Stephen Douglas. The Lincoln-Douglas Debates originated in a campaign tour by Douglas, who traveled in a private train provided by Vice President McClellan of the Illinois Central Railroad.

(Lincoln followed Douglas around the state, responding to his speeches, and Douglas was forced to agree to formal confrontations.)
Click to expand...


Lincoln actually worked for McClellan as counsel for the ICRR. Compared to how many other West Pointers Lincoln knew before 1861, I'd say they had more of a connection that Lincoln had with McDowell or any of the other senior field commanders at the time...

Best,
 

Johnrankins

TFSmith121 said:
Lincoln actually worked for McClellan as counsel for the ICRR. Compared to how many other West Pointers Lincoln knew before 1861, I'd say they had more of a connection that Lincoln had with McDowell or any of the other senior field commanders at the time...

Best,
Click to expand...

The way he acted he seemed to think Lincoln was still working for him during the war! :D
 

Major Major

Major Major said:
McClellan had been a very able, if frustrated, railway president. As President of the Ohio and Mississippi Railroad he had saved a significant Middle Western transportation line from collapsing after the Panic of 1857/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio_and_Mississippi_Railroad

Therefore, he should be put in charge of a key element of the armies: the United States Military Railroad:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Military_Railroad

Its duties can be expanded to building a transcontinental rail line under a stimulus plan (which will reduce the possibility of a secessionist Pacific States of America or State of Deseret).
Click to expand...

TFSmith121 said:
1) The Army had plenty of excellent railroaders - Herman Haupt, for example; and 2) the TCR was not a military priority in 1861-62...

Of course, it might be in a "different" 1862, which is something I've been thinking off for BROS...great minds think alike.:)

Best,
Click to expand...

Exactly. It would be "sold" to him as a significant job, which only one of his mighty talents could accomplish, and would establish him as a "team player" who won the war for the field generals, bound the nation together with bands of steel, made for victory during the war and prosperity after it . . ."Can you do it, McClellan!" "Indubdubdubitally"
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Kind of an easter egg for BROS, but:

McClellan and the AotP have just fought their equivalent to Williamsburg; something along the lines of Seven Pines, and then the Seven Days, are coming...

Best,
 
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