So just ploughing my way through Francis Pikes book Hirohitos war, and in the chapter about midway he states that Admiral King asked Churchill for a British fleet carrier for the Pacific. Churchill declined, reinforcing Kings view on the Brits. What effect do you think a Brit carrier have had at Midway?
Brit carrier at midway?
- Thread starter pierman
- Start date
Brit carrier at Midway
I'm not sure it's actually possible for the RN to get one of its Fleet Carriers to Midway in time but let's assume it can. (I guess King thought they could and he ought to have known!)
Its air group will be nothing to write home about unless there's time to reequip with US aircraft. What it would do as a minimum is add a bit to the US scouting ability, which might help. RN fighter direction was, I believe, considered superior to that of the USN so it could provide a bit more CAP than raw numbers would suggest. And, assuming it accompanied Yorktown then it would have given an extra target for the Hiryu strike force and by attracting some of those that attacked Yorktown could likely have saved the US ship. There's also a slim possibility the Brit carrier could have got a night time strike off in advance of the daytime battle but the AH consensus seems to be that's improbable.
That seems enough by itself in tangible terms. The real gains would be be letting the RN be seen as willing to fight and if need be die with the USN, cementing earlier the bonds between the two services. To be cold-blooded, the more damage suffered by whichever Illustrious class is there the better! It certainly would either have mellowed King towards the RN, or caused him apoplexy, maybe to the extent of having to retire. Either would be a real bonus for Anglo-American relations
I'm not sure it's actually possible for the RN to get one of its Fleet Carriers to Midway in time but let's assume it can. (I guess King thought they could and he ought to have known!)
Its air group will be nothing to write home about unless there's time to reequip with US aircraft. What it would do as a minimum is add a bit to the US scouting ability, which might help. RN fighter direction was, I believe, considered superior to that of the USN so it could provide a bit more CAP than raw numbers would suggest. And, assuming it accompanied Yorktown then it would have given an extra target for the Hiryu strike force and by attracting some of those that attacked Yorktown could likely have saved the US ship. There's also a slim possibility the Brit carrier could have got a night time strike off in advance of the daytime battle but the AH consensus seems to be that's improbable.
That seems enough by itself in tangible terms. The real gains would be be letting the RN be seen as willing to fight and if need be die with the USN, cementing earlier the bonds between the two services. To be cold-blooded, the more damage suffered by whichever Illustrious class is there the better! It certainly would either have mellowed King towards the RN, or caused him apoplexy, maybe to the extent of having to retire. Either would be a real bonus for Anglo-American relations
The Illustrious class carriers also carry a fairly heavy AA complement of 8x2*4.5" 6x8*2pdr, and 10x20mm Oerlikon, vs the Yorktown complement of 4x2*5", 4x4*1.1", 24x20mm Oerlikon and, 24x0.5". This will make her a tough target, which in addition to the fact that there are now too targets, will probably save the Yorktown for the time being.
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Brit carrier(s) at Midway
A quick bit of googling shows that the Vic was in the Mediterranean but the Illustrious, Formidable and their half-sister Indomitable were all in the Indian Ocean between April and August 1942. I think with HMS Warspite and presumably some cruisers and destroyers as escorts. They were mainly involved in seizing Madagascar from Vichy France so that the island's ports couldn't be used by Japanese raiders.
So, it seems that one at least could in theory have been spared along with an escort to go via Sydney to Pearl Harbour. How long under combat conditions would that voyage take, skirting the strike radius of Japanese air bases?
The air group I've found for HMS Illustrious in September 1942 was 21 Martlet (F-4F I think, comparable to US Wildcat), 6 Fulmar and 18 Swordfish TSR - useful for scouting and AS work only I guess. Or night strike? Able to defend itself and help a companion carrier if not add much to the strike force. Saving Yorktown I presume would count as making a valuable difference to the outcome but the glory would still belong to the USN.
Of course, if all three were sent...
Sadly, I suspect that big a force couldn't have been supplied by the RN at such a distance from its bases, nor easily by the USN at the time. Still, by arriving in the combat area from a different angle to the US fleet, it would have complicated the IJN's operations. I doubt if an even more convincing victory could have been won though and there's the risk the Japanese would simply have concluded the odds were too high and abandoned the operation. Of course, alternatively the IJN could have attacked the RN carriers* after mistaking them for the US forces. Thus leaving themselves open to a devastating US strike! Not sure the role of sacrificial pawns would have been appreciated in Britain though.
Worth gaming out?? Anyone got a better game than the old SPI Fast Carriers?
* How well they could survive a full-scale strike is unclear. The armour would help and the fighter direction was good. Provided they avoided torpedo strikes i think it likely they would have survived hits from bombs. Moreover, the Indomitable did get torpedoed and survived.
A quick bit of googling shows that the Vic was in the Mediterranean but the Illustrious, Formidable and their half-sister Indomitable were all in the Indian Ocean between April and August 1942. I think with HMS Warspite and presumably some cruisers and destroyers as escorts. They were mainly involved in seizing Madagascar from Vichy France so that the island's ports couldn't be used by Japanese raiders.
So, it seems that one at least could in theory have been spared along with an escort to go via Sydney to Pearl Harbour. How long under combat conditions would that voyage take, skirting the strike radius of Japanese air bases?
The air group I've found for HMS Illustrious in September 1942 was 21 Martlet (F-4F I think, comparable to US Wildcat), 6 Fulmar and 18 Swordfish TSR - useful for scouting and AS work only I guess. Or night strike? Able to defend itself and help a companion carrier if not add much to the strike force. Saving Yorktown I presume would count as making a valuable difference to the outcome but the glory would still belong to the USN.
Of course, if all three were sent...
Sadly, I suspect that big a force couldn't have been supplied by the RN at such a distance from its bases, nor easily by the USN at the time. Still, by arriving in the combat area from a different angle to the US fleet, it would have complicated the IJN's operations. I doubt if an even more convincing victory could have been won though and there's the risk the Japanese would simply have concluded the odds were too high and abandoned the operation. Of course, alternatively the IJN could have attacked the RN carriers* after mistaking them for the US forces. Thus leaving themselves open to a devastating US strike! Not sure the role of sacrificial pawns would have been appreciated in Britain though.
Worth gaming out?? Anyone got a better game than the old SPI Fast Carriers?
* How well they could survive a full-scale strike is unclear. The armour would help and the fighter direction was good. Provided they avoided torpedo strikes i think it likely they would have survived hits from bombs. Moreover, the Indomitable did get torpedoed and survived.
USS Robin....Fighter Carrier
How about if they used the Brit Deck (assuming that it gets sent and arrives in a timely fashion) as a fighter carrier?
Leave most or all of the Swordfish/Albacores behind in Pearl or San Diego and load up with 60-70 F4F-4 fighters and have the Brit carrier acting as the priciple fighter controller leaving the strike work to the 3 Yorktowns.
Victorious operated 60+ F4F-4s when she worked with Saratoga in 43 - with Sara keeping 12 Fighters and operating the entire Strike wing of both ships
I imagine that Indomitable could carry even more that 60 or include some Albacores
An Additional 60 well managed Wildcats defending the 2 carrier groups would very likely improve the chances of all 3 US Decks surviving the fight.
How about if they used the Brit Deck (assuming that it gets sent and arrives in a timely fashion) as a fighter carrier?
Leave most or all of the Swordfish/Albacores behind in Pearl or San Diego and load up with 60-70 F4F-4 fighters and have the Brit carrier acting as the priciple fighter controller leaving the strike work to the 3 Yorktowns.
Victorious operated 60+ F4F-4s when she worked with Saratoga in 43 - with Sara keeping 12 Fighters and operating the entire Strike wing of both ships
I imagine that Indomitable could carry even more that 60 or include some Albacores
An Additional 60 well managed Wildcats defending the 2 carrier groups would very likely improve the chances of all 3 US Decks surviving the fight.
Another advantage the British would have had, the Yorktown's CXAM radar had a maximum range of perhaps 100 miles at the outside (and maybe a bit less), while any of the Illustriouses type 281 sets had a maximum range of about 130 miles. This would give another 7 of minutes warning of inbound bogeys.
Saphroneth
Banned
That's probably the best setup, actually - the Brit carrier being all-fighters-all-the-time, given the Brit experience at doing so.
If I had my druthers I'd also have a dozen or so ASV radar equipped Swordfish, too, just because those are fantastic scouts and ASW aircraft, but that's a potentially unnecessary refinement.
If I had my druthers I'd also have a dozen or so ASV radar equipped Swordfish, too, just because those are fantastic scouts and ASW aircraft, but that's a potentially unnecessary refinement.
I recommend:
Midway (Avalon Hill - 1965 version)
Battle For Midway (Games Workshop)
Flattop (Battleline/Avalon Hill)
CV (Yaquinto)
Scratch One Flat Top (World Wide Wargames?)
Carrier (Victory Games - Solitaire)
Unfortunately ALL of these are out-of-print and difficult to find...
If the British carrier is at Midway then the battle becomes the first joint US/British victory of the war before Tunisia. Imagine the propaganda coup that would be!
Could Britain spare a carrier to stay on in the Pacific after Midway? I am thinking of the long term benefits. Could you have the Brits sail to San Diego and update its air wing to American aircraft? Ditch the Swordfish for new Avengers? Perhaps have a Canadian squadron created? But most important what if the FAA gets an early look at the F4U Corsair? Maybe they start working on the Corsair's carrier landing challenges. Could we see an earlier debut of Carrier launched Corsairs? Maybe the Corsairs are too much but if you the US Navy and re-arm and supply a RN carrier in the second half of 1942 could it return to the combat zone to reinforce Enterprise at Guadalcanal?
Could Britain spare a carrier to stay on in the Pacific after Midway? I am thinking of the long term benefits. Could you have the Brits sail to San Diego and update its air wing to American aircraft? Ditch the Swordfish for new Avengers? Perhaps have a Canadian squadron created? But most important what if the FAA gets an early look at the F4U Corsair? Maybe they start working on the Corsair's carrier landing challenges. Could we see an earlier debut of Carrier launched Corsairs? Maybe the Corsairs are too much but if you the US Navy and re-arm and supply a RN carrier in the second half of 1942 could it return to the combat zone to reinforce Enterprise at Guadalcanal?
nbcman
Donor
Glenn239 used 'Midway' with some additional refinements when he wargamed a ATL Pearl Harbor second attack scenario in March 1942; he described it in this thread:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=290514&highlight=midway
Maybe try contacting him for some recommendations?
Issue here is scaring up an additional 60 Wildcats. There just aren't that many spares at Pearl. Victorious was working with the Sara almost seven months later, Wildcats were a high stock item by then.
One thing that this is likely to achieve, at minimum, is that it would resolve the endless debate regarding the Armored deck, small air wing vs. Wooden deck, big air wing, Swordfish/Devastator debates.
I think at least 36 at Pearl, F4F-3's just removed from carrier service to make way for the F4F-4's.
Saphroneth
Banned
Could Robin the Victorious just bring her service Sea Hurricanes? Or were there not enough at the time either? (Of course, two dozen Sea Hurricanes and 36 F4F-3 should make a nice deck load of sixty, and if not there's space for some ASV Swordfish to sweeten the pot.)
That's easy enough to butterfly though, isn't it? The Americans get on the ball a bit sooner in '41 so production is a bit higher, enough so that putting them on a British Carrier isn't a huge imposition.Issue here is scaring up an additional 60 Wildcats. There just aren't that many spares at Pearl. Victorious was working with the Sara almost seven months later, Wildcats were a high stock item by then.
One thing that this is likely to achieve, at minimum, is that it would resolve the endless debate regarding the Armored deck, small air wing vs. Wooden deck, big air wing, Swordfish/Devastator debates.
Yes thats so easy to do send a carrier half way round the world for a battle she would probably miss.
How does she refuel at sea the RN doesnt have the fast fleet oilers and USN hose fittings will be different to RN bunker inlets.
How does the carrier communicate with the USN aircraft the radios work on different frequencies.
The USN aircraft have different hooks and different catapult fittings.
Where does the 4.5" and pom pom ammo come from.
Where do the spare parts for the carrier come from different threads and different design protocols.
Theres about a thousand other reasons why it wont and why it took Victorious months to work up to USN methods.
How does she refuel at sea the RN doesnt have the fast fleet oilers and USN hose fittings will be different to RN bunker inlets.
How does the carrier communicate with the USN aircraft the radios work on different frequencies.
The USN aircraft have different hooks and different catapult fittings.
Where does the 4.5" and pom pom ammo come from.
Where do the spare parts for the carrier come from different threads and different design protocols.
Theres about a thousand other reasons why it wont and why it took Victorious months to work up to USN methods.
deathscompanion1
Banned
But if they were on the ball in '41 the campaigns there would have gone differently.
The Brits might have had some of their own at this point!
One thing that this is likely to achieve, at minimum, is that it would resolve the endless debate regarding the Armored deck, small air wing vs. Wooden deck, big air wing, Swordfish/Devastator debates.
Damn it - then what would we have to argue about