WI: Anarchists win the Spanish Civil War
- Thread starter GriffinFTW
- Start date
Its not the popular support that really mattered, of which the Anarchists had WAAAY more than the Stalinists, Catalonia as the shining example. Its where the weapons came from that decided who ruled the Republic, and that's why it would be the Stalinists.
Anglo-French intervention before you can say vamanos. If the CNT-FAI actually came out on top London and Paris would have shat bricks and sent in troops to crush yet another "Red" uprising in its cradle. Fears of creeping socialism are why the British helped with the air bridge for Franco's Army of Africa and turned a blind eye to the German and Italian military aid in violation of the LoN blockade. An Anarchist Spain means they'd be taking far more active steps to stop that cold in its tracks.
Certainly they are different methods of structuring society, but each are fundamentally anti-capitalist. Therefore, the leading capitalist regimes would fear the implementation of an anarchist confederation just as much as a Soviet Republic.
The one reservation I have with that scenario that fascist Germany was Franco's main supporter. I can't see France or the UK acting in a way that might bolster German influence.
I'm trying to imagine how an anarchist confederation would even work. Would they just let everyone form militias for defense and do whatever else they want?
Very unlikely.
The anarchists were just a small faction of the republican coalition, and before the war was over their supposed comrades had turned against them. Combined with anarchism's opposition to hierarchy and authority and such, I don't think the anarchists could really "win" the Spanish Civil War, in the sense you may be thinking of.
However, they could maybe have a seat at the table in a republican victory scenario, but I'm pretty sure they'd end up being betrayed at some point. If the republicans win they're going to have to "restore order" and all that.
However, let's assume that an ASB reads The Conquest of Bread and decides to turn Spain into a big anarchist commune. Europe would be met with a new era of peace, as France, Britain, Italy, Germany, the Soviet Union, and others would all pitch in to turn Spain into a smoking ruin.
The anarchists were just a small faction of the republican coalition, and before the war was over their supposed comrades had turned against them. Combined with anarchism's opposition to hierarchy and authority and such, I don't think the anarchists could really "win" the Spanish Civil War, in the sense you may be thinking of.
However, they could maybe have a seat at the table in a republican victory scenario, but I'm pretty sure they'd end up being betrayed at some point. If the republicans win they're going to have to "restore order" and all that.
However, let's assume that an ASB reads The Conquest of Bread and decides to turn Spain into a big anarchist commune. Europe would be met with a new era of peace, as France, Britain, Italy, Germany, the Soviet Union, and others would all pitch in to turn Spain into a smoking ruin.
Doubly so because anarchism does not involve establishing a top-down dictatorship that's easily reviled. An anarcho-syndicalist/libertarian communist society that actually works would scare the hell out of capitalist powers like nothing else because it would prove you can have your cake and eat it too very spectacularly. Stalin would have also had serious problems with it as it would have presented a serious alternative to his USSR and that was something, as his iron-grip control of Comintern shows, he would have never tolerated for a single second. As-is his proxies in Spain actively worked with the Republicans to prevent a social revolution from happening. If one was actually pulled off you would see the truly odd combination of the Soviets, the Nazis, the British, the French, and the Italians uniting against the Spanish.
You underestimate how much support the Nazis and Hitler had among the British establishment. Part of the reason Munich was a major turning point was because it led to a major wakeup call for the British conservatives that Hitler was not just someone they could just turn loose to take care of those dirty Reds for them but had his own agenda that was directly at odds with theirs. Many of these same people had no problems with Mussolini because they saw him as a useful tool for crushing the threat of communist revolt in Italy. Hel Churchill himself backed Franco early on before German involvement and support became apparent precisely because of the fears of an anti-capitalist regime coming out on top in Spain.
As much as, personally speaking, my heart and soul is all in favor of a CNT-FAI victory in Spain my head tells me the international political situation would have meant doom for the people of Spain and the CNT's total destruction by a multinational coalition if that had ever happened.
In the style of the CNT-FAI it is important to remember first of all that Anarchism =\= no rules but no rulers. You can get into the semantics of what a "ruler" is, but in general the proposed idea is an anti-heriarchical and hoirzontal system of governance in which an Anarchist region confederates when neccesary. People within a workers union would vote on a representative or appear directly to decide matters in a council.
I appreciate that this is vague, but often it is vague
if you want an example of it in action IRL (though watered down strongly) look at the Mondragon Corporation in the basque region of Spain which based itself on many ideas within anarchist governance and economics.Because examples like Wobbly shops and MONDRAGON show, to me, that the methods and ideas the CNT-FAI were fighting for would be a better, more equitable, efficient, and just way to organize society. The anarcho-syndicalist method has been proven effective before and the main reasons the CNT-FAI failed in Spain was because they were massively out of their proverbial weight class thanks to Nazi and Fascist support for Franco and had untrustworthy allies who were working with them only because they knew they couldn't fight off Franco without the CNT.
Where has anarchy worked? What was so bad about Franco rule? all the republicans were worried about doing was emptying prisons, legalizing abortion, shooting priests, raping nuns, outlawing marriage, and enabling secession. They didn't have any clear plans on how to form or keep a functioning society. There is a reason that the only communist/socialist revolutions that have worked have been in countries with strong central leadership
Off the top of my head, the fact that he was the man backed by Spain's feudalists, priests, and the fascists of the world. I'd support any anarchist over any fascist. Atleast the anarchist has a vision of a better world that is actually a world that sounds worth living in.
Also, to put it bluntly the racket that was the spanish church needed to brought down, the land needed to be redistributed, there's nothing wrong with secession when it has the support of the populace living there, and their goals and plans are pretty obvious from their names and their own manifestos.
Franco's rule was pretty bad, that I don't believe that 2nd Republic for all it's faults was a hellhole in comparison. As a word of advice most people on this side of the forum tend to be Communist, Anarchist or on the left in general so expect some serious criticism. However Communist revolutions that weren't imposed always happened in governments without central leadership. Russia and China were torn apart by Civil Wars and factionalism, while I don't how centralized the French authority in Indochina was.
As for the Anarchists wining how would the "state" in this reasonably be operated? Serious compromises would have to be made with alot of people.
Franco's White Terror killed between 150,000 and 400,000 people. The Red Terror, by contrast, killed at most around 80,000 people so right off the bat that's a whole lot less dead bodies that you can blame on the anarchists.
I'd like to see some figures on the "emptying prisons" part assuming of course every single person ever locked up in Spain was a genuinely violent, dangerous individual. Considering there were a number of crimes like vagrancy or the suppression of union activity that were largely political in nature that is a far more complex situation than you are making it out to be. Many of the priests executed during the Red Terror were guilty of actively working for Franco making them enemy agents, a status that most people would consider valid targets in wartime. As to the "outlawing marriage, legalizing abortion, and enabling secession" stuff that sounds like snarl words and statements made based on your particular personal views. Outlawing marriage is one that's simply untrue, legalizing abortion is but is only a bad thing if you think women having bodily autonomy is actually bad, and enabling secession ignores that the CNT-FAI wasn't pushing for the breakup of Spain at any point in the war.
Yes they did, said plans were implemented in Aragon and Catalonia. All workplaces and farms were placed under the collective ownership of the people who worked there, production was supervised by larger councils of these workplaces, and the anarchist militias were some of the fiercest and most effective opponents of the fascists. During the course of the war, according to numerous sources like Paul Preston, CNT-controlled regions of Spain produced more war materiel than the rest of Spain combined, an eloquent testament to the efficiency of their methods of organizing production.
Something similar to how the CNT-FAI operated but applied to the whole country. Workplaces, towns, villages, and cities would be run by the people living in them via direct democracy. Regional governance would be handled by councils of delegates from amongst their constituent elements and Spain, at the top level, would be run by some sort of mass assembly representing all of Spain, consisting most likely of directly elected delegates, with an executive committee of sorts elected from amongst the rank and file. Some compromises, like centralized control of the military, would need to be made especially with the looming threat of foreign invasion hanging over their heads but overall the forms the CNT-FAI operated on are ones that cases like MONDRAGON have proven are effective, scalable, highly efficient, and directly accountable to the people.
Last edited:
So you suggest reading books that are anti franco since i am not anti franco? The only reason the reds didn't kill more in the post war is because they spent the majority of the war losing ground. Had they won the war i'm sure their victims would have numbered at least half a million. Leftist european dictatorships are usually pretty bloodthirsty. I do understand that the message boards and forums on the internet have a plethora of anarchists. I don't mind communists at all, they have a clear goal and plans to have a functioning society. anarchy/libertarianism is a pipe dream of people with no understanding of human nature. Finally, the church in spain has been not been exceptionally dastardly, greedy, or murderous. It has just been the victim of black legends. Protestants killed just as many if not more witches and catholics, while the atheists have killed far more than both protestant and catholic combined. You may not like what i have to say but you can't hipster it away
So you suggest reading books that are anti franco since i am not anti franco? The only reason the reds didn't kill more in the post war is because they spent the majority of the war losing ground. Had they won the war i'm sure their victims would have numbered at least half a million. Leftist european dictatorships are usually pretty bloodthirsty. I do understand that the message boards and forums on the internet have a plethora of anarchists. I don't mind communists at all, they have a clear goal and plans to have a functioning society. anarchy/libertarianism is a pipe dream of people with no understanding of human nature. Finally, the church in spain has been not been exceptionally dastardly, greedy, or murderous. It has just been the victim of black legends. Protestants killed just as many if not more witches and catholics, while the atheists have killed far more than both protestant and catholic combined. You may not like what i have to say but you can't hipster it away
First, the majority of people killed in the Red Terror were killed by Stalinists. While I doubt anyone can seriously defend what the burning of churches and those other acts of terror Anarchists actually didn't kill that many people.
Second, the biggest difference between the Red Terror and the White Terror (beside scale) was the method. The White Terror was a systemic attempt to cleanse Spain of what Franco's enemies. It was carried out at the highest levels. For example upon taking the city of Badajoz General Juan Yague killed 10% of the population, including women, children, and the wounded in the hospitals. In contrast the Red Terror was largely sporadic and disorganized, more along the lines of sudden revenge killings than an extermination campaign. And almost all of the instances that were organized were carried out by the Stalinists, even against the Anarchists.
You can argue about the viability of Anarchism, but saying that Franco was in any way better is ridiculous.