WI: Albertinian Habsburgs survives

The Albertinian line of the House of Habsburgs refers to the descendants of Duke Albert III of Austria when the Austrian Archduchy was divided in 1379, Austria Proper being ruled by Albert and the rest (Carinthia, Carniola, Tirol and Further Austria) being ruled by Leopold of Habsburg (the Leopoldine line).

The line even had a elected King of Romans, Albert II in 1438, that also ruled Hungary and Bohemia, but died in 1439, being succeed by his cousin of the Leopoldine branch the future HRE Frederick III.

Albert had a son, Ladislaus, that was born after his death. He would eventurally regain all of his father's lands in Bohemia and Hungary, but died at the age of 17 in 1457, aparentely of leukemia. The Habsburgs would only regain Bohemia and Hungary in 1526 with the death of Louis II Jagiellon.

But what if Ladislaus didn't die young, marry Magdalena of France and continue the dynasty (assuming it don't die in at least 200 years)?

How would the Albertinians fare against the Ottomans?

How would be the dynamics with the Leopoldine (Imperial) Branch?

Note: Magdalena of France was the Great-great grandmother of Henry IV of France, butterflies

The Albertine branch would definitely be a rival for the Imperial don't forget that the Albertine branch has an electorate, since the head of that branch is king of Bohemia.

They might end up as the Bavarian and Palatinate Wittelsbachs, but don't have to be.
If the Leopoldine branch would go extinct, than the Albertine branch will inherit their lands (Styria, Carinthia, Carniola, Tirol and Further Austria). If it's the other way around later down the line, than any Albertine heiress might end up marrying her distant Leopoldine branch cousin.

IMHO Hungary*-Bohemia-Austria (*= with Croatia) could be able to keep control over their own lands, however any vassal states or otherwise within their sphere on the Balkans will probably fall though.

Janprimus said:

The Albertine branch would definitely be a rival for the Imperial don't forget that the Albertine branch has an electorate, since the head of that branch is king of Bohemia.

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That's what I though, there's the chance of once Frederick III dies (OTL 1493) Ladislaus (if he still alive would be 53) or his heir to dispute the election? His grand/father was briefly King of Romans after all.

Monter said:

That's what I though, there's the chance of once Frederick III dies (OTL 1493) Ladislaus (if he still alive would be 53) or his heir to dispute the election? His grand/father was briefly King of Romans after all.

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Friedrich III would probably never have been Emperor, if Ladislaus wasn't too young at the death of Albrecht II.

Ladislaus' son could marry Mary of Burgundy instead...

Now this would be a very interesting TL. With the majority of their holdings in the east, the Albertinian line would no doubt be focused almost solely on Bohemia and Hungary, ignoring the small Austrian territories. This could leave Friedrich III's line as the Imperial line. Of course this means that they would have to maintain a careful relationship with their Albertinian cousins, as their Bohemian vote would be very important to retain the throne.

But that's mainly long-term thinking. The real trying time is going to be Ladislaus' reign. At the time of his death Hungary was in the midst of a civil war against the revolting Hunyadi family. Assuming he's able to defeat the revolt (Ladislaus did have the Hunyadi heir, the future Matthias Corvinus, as a captive), Hungary will be the key to a successful reign. If Ladislaus can pull off reforms similar to that of Matthias Corvinus, then the Hungarian Habsburgs would be in a very strong position. If he's more like Vladislaus of Hungary & Bohemia, then they probably won't be successful.

As for the idea of the Albertinian line marrying into the Burgundians, not likely. The eastern Habsburgs wouldn't be in any position to aid Mary in defending her inheritance.

Well I'm currently dealing with this theme in my TL. Around the mid 1400s the Austrian crown has several problems; the high amount of noble power in Hungary, the Turks pressing in from the East, and accommodating/suppressing the Hussites. By the sheer political and economic weight of the Hungarian nobles in comparison to Lower Austria you would probably see a Hungarian dominated union . Bohemia for all intents and purposes were autonomous as a direct result of the failed Hussite wars but the crown offers prestige and as others have pointed out an electorate within the Empire.

There is still dynastic claims on Upper Austria and you can expect to see wars eventually but the largest focus is on the OTL threat of the Ottomans. Now IOTL Mathias did an excellent job of administration and warfare, so much so that he held off the Ottomans for half a century-Ladislaus on the other hand is unknown . If Ladislaus survives he still has to deal with the powerful and rebellious nobles of Hungary and Mathias is both the popular son of a hero as well as very competent himself; another roll of the dice. In the end it really depends on how they fare against the Ottomans one of the best militaries of its time operating on the far end of a logistical trail.

Irene said:

Well I'm currently dealing with this theme in my TL. Around the mid 1400s the Austrian crown has several problems; the high amount of noble power in Hungary, the Turks pressing in from the East, and accommodating/suppressing the Hussites. By the sheer political and economic weight of the Hungarian nobles in comparison to Lower Austria you would probably see a Hungarian dominated union . Bohemia for all intents and purposes were autonomous as a direct result of the failed Hussite wars but the crown offers prestige and as others have pointed out an electorate within the Empire.

There is still dynastic claims on Upper Austria and you can expect to see wars eventually but the largest focus is on the OTL threat of the Ottomans. Now IOTL Mathias did an excellent job of administration and warfare, so much so that he held off the Ottomans for half a century-Ladislaus on the other hand is unknown . If Ladislaus survives he still has to deal with the powerful and rebellious nobles of Hungary and Mathias is both the popular son of a hero as well as very competent himself; another roll of the dice. In the end it really depends on how they fare against the Ottomans one of the best militaries of its time operating on the far end of a logistical trail.

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The Catholic Poles in Silesia could be an ally for the Habsburgs - I think the Habsburgs should treat Silesia like the way they treated Galicia-Lodomeria and favored the Catholic Poles to the Protestant Germans and Czechs.

Emperor Constantine said:

Now this would be a very interesting TL. With the majority of their holdings in the east, the Albertinian line would no doubt be focused almost solely on Bohemia and Hungary, ignoring the small Austrian territories. This could leave Friedrich III's line as the Imperial line. Of course this means that they would have to maintain a careful relationship with their Albertinian cousins, as their Bohemian vote would be very important to retain the throne.

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The house of Luxembourg also controlled the Empire from Bohemia and later during the reign of Sigismund also Hungary.
I'm not too sure they'd ignore their Austrian possessions, especially of they inherit the Austrian possessions from the Leopoldine branch too; their hold on power may be most secure there and can be useful for the hold on their other possessions.

Emperor Constantine said:

As for the idea of the Albertinian line marrying into the Burgundians, not likely. The eastern Habsburgs wouldn't be in any position to aid Mary in defending her inheritance.

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I beg to differ, bringing Lothier, Brabant, Limburg, Luxembourg, Franche Comté, Namur, Hainaut, Holland, Zeeland etc. back in the Imperial orbit would be too good to pass on. Like IOTL they'd still be able to support her, even with the Ottoman threat; maybe they're even in a better position than Maximilian IOTL.
Without the Austrian possessions of the Albertine branch, the Leopoldine branch will be weaker too to help Mary. Still the wealthy Burgundian lands are worth the risk. ITTL, if the Leopoldine branch would still marry with Valois-Burgundy, then I can see them shift their focus to those lands.

Oh yes ! A much overlooked late-medieval POD.

Had the "Habsburg Hungarian prologue" of Albert not petered out after a short while, the remainder of the 15th century could have gone quite differently. Especially if it would have to an absence of either the Jagellonians or House Hunyady on the Hungarian throne.

Plus the Albertine Habsburgs will have an issue with the Jagiellonians being illegitimate - the Silesians and some Poles who are against Krewo would support their claims, they might be interested in claiming more of Poland for the HRE..

Bumping

If Ladislaus were to outlive Emperor Frederick III in TTL, he would certainly try to get himself elected to the imperial throne. Ladislaus would see being Emperor as an opportunity to persuade German princes to aid him in his wars with the Ottomans. Ladislaus would also likely seek papal help to form a holy league (with his brother in law Casmir IV of Poland as a member) against the Ottomans. Luxembourg would be a bone of contention between the Albertine line and the dukes of Burgundy in TTL.

Janprimus said:

The house of Luxembourg also controlled the Empire from Bohemia and later during the reign of Sigismund also Hungary.
I'm not too sure they'd ignore their Austrian possessions, especially of they inherit the Austrian possessions from the Leopoldine branch too; their hold on power may be most secure there and can be useful for the hold on their other possessions.



I beg to differ, bringing Lothier, Brabant, Limburg, Luxembourg, Franche Comté, Namur, Hainaut, Holland, Zeeland etc. back in the Imperial orbit would be too good to pass on. Like IOTL they'd still be able to support her, even with the Ottoman threat; maybe they're even in a better position than Maximilian IOTL.
Without the Austrian possessions of the Albertine branch, the Leopoldine branch will be weaker too to help Mary. Still the wealthy Burgundian lands are worth the risk. ITTL, if the Leopoldine branch would still marry with Valois-Burgundy, then I can see them shift their focus to those lands.

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How would the Eastern Habsburgs, with their lands in Bohemia and Hungary, be in any position to aid Mary the Rich? The Imperial line, with the resources of the Empire and being the feudal suzerain of parts of the Burgundian inheritance, yes. But the Eastern line, not really. Now if you have Friedrick die childless, things are different. Then I can see Ladislaus getting the Imperial throne (assuming his Hungarian-Bohemian reign has been successful thus far) and being in a position to create an alliance/marriage with Mary the Rich.

Also, the Albertine branch didn't hold Bohemia and Hungary when Maximilian married Mary of Burgundy. As for the Austrian lands, the only part the Imperial line didn't have would be the center of modern Austria. They'd still have some power.

Alpha Trion said:

If Ladislaus were to outlive Emperor Frederick III in TTL, he would certainly try to get himself elected to the imperial throne. Ladislaus would see being Emperor as an opportunity to persuade German princes to aid him in his wars with the Ottomans. Ladislaus would also likely seek papal help to form a holy league (with his brother in law Casmir IV of Poland as a member) against the Ottomans. Luxembourg would be a bone of contention between the Albertine line and the dukes of Burgundy in TTL.

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There's no guarantee that Ladislaus would become Emperor. More importantly, Maximilian was OTL elected King of the Romans and heir to the Empire in his father's lifetime. If the same happens here Ladislaus is out of luck for the throne. Also this assumes that the King would be in a position to launch an offensive against the Turks. If Ladislaus is like Vladislaus II then Hungary would be in no position to go on the offensive. If he's more like Matthias Corvinus however..... then we have something to talk about.

Finally, Luxembourg wouldn't be a real bone of contention: Emperor Sigismund mortgaged the Duchy to his niece Elisabeth and was unable to pay back the loan, leaving her in control of Luxembourg. Elisabeth sold it to the Burgundians, as was her right. I can't see Ladislaus bringing up a minor claim on a territory that was very much of his ability to regain.

Alpha Trion said:

If Ladislaus were to outlive Emperor Frederick III in TTL, he would certainly try to get himself elected to the imperial throne. Ladislaus would see being Emperor as an opportunity to persuade German princes to aid him in his wars with the Ottomans. Ladislaus would also likely seek papal help to form a holy league (with his brother in law Casmir IV of Poland as a member) against the Ottomans. Luxembourg would be a bone of contention between the Albertine line and the dukes of Burgundy in TTL.

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The problem is that the Luxembourgs and the Albertinian Hapsburgs don't even see the Jagiellonians as friends or allies and his sister would not marry to the Jagiellonian monarchs and they would treat the Jagiellonians as usurpers as heirs the last Piast monarch.

Both the leopoldine and albertine Habsburgs have married to the piast claimants to the polish throne.

Emperor Constantine said:

How would the Eastern Habsburgs, with their lands in Bohemia and Hungary, be in any position to aid Mary the Rich? The Imperial line, with the resources of the Empire and being the feudal suzerain of parts of the Burgundian inheritance, yes. But the Eastern line, not really. Now if you have Friedrick die childless, things are different. Then I can see Ladislaus getting the Imperial throne (assuming his Hungarian-Bohemian reign has been successful thus far) and being in a position to create an alliance/marriage with Mary the Rich.

Also, the Albertine branch didn't hold Bohemia and Hungary when Maximilian married Mary of Burgundy. As for the Austrian lands, the only part the Imperial line didn't have would be the center of modern Austria. They'd still have some power.

(...)

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It was more important that the Leopoldine branch was married to the heiress of Valois-Burgundy, then that they were the feudal suzerain; if anything that marriage greatly helped to reassert the position of the Empire there.

Well the Albertine branch keeping control over Bohemia and Hungary due to them not going extinct is the WI here. By 1477 when Maximilian and Mary married IOTL, the Albertine branch was already extinct in the male line.
Austria proper was the most valuable part of the Austrian hereditary lands, though IIRC Tirol had some valuable mines. Regardless a surviving Albertine branch means a weaker Leopoldine branch; OTOH none of the Austrian Hereditary Lands will end up being occupied by Hungary ITTL.

In OTL, Casimir IV and Elizabeth of Austria got married in 1454, three years before the death of Ladislaus. So the Habsburgs and Jagiellonians were not incompatible when it came to marriage. Ladislaus was the duke of Luxembourg with the ultimate right to mortgage the duchy from Philip the Good. In OTL, Ladislaus had contacted the estates of Luxembourg in order for them to recognize him as their duke. If Ladislaus had the money in TTL to redeem the mortgage and Philip refused to accept it, then there would certainly be conflict between them. In TTL, Ladislaus would likely give up his rights to the duchy in return for a marriage between his son and Mary of Burgundy. I said Ladislaus would try to get himself elected Emperor but I never said that he would win. I mentioned a holy league due to the efforts of Popes Callixtus III and Pius II to combat the Ottomans.

(2 months isn't necro, is it?)

So, I was just doing a casual reading I found something interesting about Ladislaus and the Burgundians.

When he finally received his entire inheritance, conflict between the status of the Duchy of Luxembourg arose, Ladislaus recognized himself as Duke and agreed to the possibility of "buying it back" from Philip the Good once the former Duchess Elisabeth died (1451).

So, if the male Burgundians died as in OTL and the Valois and Leopoldines fight for the inheritance, which side would support Ladislaus' (or his son, if the former is dead) claim better? Reminding that Louis XI is brother-in-law or uncle of the King of Hungary.

Monter said:

(2 months isn't necro, is it?)

So, I was just doing a casual reading I found something interesting about Ladislaus and the Burgundians.

When he finally received his entire inheritance, conflict between the status of the Duchy of Luxembourg arose, Ladislaus recognized himself as Duke and agreed to the possibility of "buying it back" from Philip the Good once the former Duchess Elisabeth died (1451).

So, if the male Burgundians died as in OTL and the Valois and Leopoldines fight for the inheritance, which side would support Ladislaus' (or his son, if the former is dead) claim better? Reminding that Louis XI is brother-in-law or uncle of the King of Hungary.

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Who's to say the Leopoldines will manage to marry the Valois-Burgundy heiress; IOTL it helped that they as Emperor were also the formal liege of the various imperial fiefs of Valois-Burgundy, but their claim was mostly derived from the marriage between duchess Mary of Burgundy and archduke Maximilian of Austria.

It will be marital ties versus loyalty to the house and to the Empire. I don't think he would want that the king of France gets the whole Burgundian Inheritance, which would not be in the interests of the Empire and the Habsburg dynasty. Perhaps a settlement somewhat like the 1482 treaty of Arras, however ITTL Ladislaus gets the duchy of Luxembourg (at the expense of the OTL 'Leopoldine share'). The free county of Burgundy (Franche Comté) could either go to France or the Leopoldines (IOTL it formally went to France as a dowry, even though France had occupied it before that), that may depend on who has Ladislaus' favour (I'm leaning towards France, ITTL ; as a Dutchman I'm generally more pro Burgundy ).

Basically France ends up with all French fiefs except the county of Flanders (so the duchy of Burgundy and the county of Artois) and the county palatine (AKA free county) of Burgundy* (and other parts of France formerly in the Burgundian sphere).
Ladislaus gets the duchy of Luxembourg and Charles of Egmont gets the duchy of Guelders/Gelre.
Finally the Leopoldines get the duchies of Lothier, Brabant and Limburg, the margraviate of Namur, and the counties of Flanders, Hainaut, Holland and Zeeland and the lordship of Mechelen (Malines in French).

(*= an imperial fief)