Had the German Empire could win the Grat War,
or was it Doomed from moment they march into Belgium ?
or was it Doomed from moment they march into Belgium ?
Could the German Empire win WW1 and How?
- Thread starter Michel Van
- Start date
i heard this story several time and even here in this Forum
it about First Battle of the Marne were German troops approach Paris to 70 km
There was a Gap between the 1st and 2nd German Armies, they try to coordinate to close the Gap by radio transmission (uncoded)
but French used the Eiffel tower as huge Radio antenna for Military, intercepting the Messages and
Organized defense by driving ever available soldiers with Taxis from Paris to Frontline and win this battle.
but there is a POD to it, original the Eiffel tower was to be dismantled in 1909 !
a return the estate back the City of Paris. wanted to sell it for real estate business
but it was save by one vote form Demolition on reason for communication purposes.
so without the Eiffel tower military radio station, they would not be able to intercept the radio transmission of German army.
mean other Outcome of First Battle of the Marne
it about First Battle of the Marne were German troops approach Paris to 70 km
There was a Gap between the 1st and 2nd German Armies, they try to coordinate to close the Gap by radio transmission (uncoded)
but French used the Eiffel tower as huge Radio antenna for Military, intercepting the Messages and
Organized defense by driving ever available soldiers with Taxis from Paris to Frontline and win this battle.
but there is a POD to it, original the Eiffel tower was to be dismantled in 1909 !
a return the estate back the City of Paris. wanted to sell it for real estate business
but it was save by one vote form Demolition on reason for communication purposes.
so without the Eiffel tower military radio station, they would not be able to intercept the radio transmission of German army.
mean other Outcome of First Battle of the Marne
That's a wonderfully minor POD with huge consequences ^^ I mean it'd also force different establishment shots for movies set in Paris
But yes, overall the Central Powers had a good chance of winning, with avoiding Belgium and just stalling on the Franco-German border until Russia has been dealt with being the easiest change (just like BooNZ suggested). Though the Western Front would still be an ugly meat grinder taking a heavy toll on German moral, chances are at least high that the Brits won't actively take part in WW1, thus greatly improving Germany's chances by making supplies easier to come by and having fewer soldiers to face.
Dude yes, that POD needs to be explored more. I can see it go like the prologue of Conroy's 1920
redlightning
Banned
It's simple for them to win. Keep the Americans out of the war completely and neutral during World War I. The Germans will be able to advance into northern France and march on Paris by 1918. The French government capitulates and ends up giving control of most of its overseas territories to the Germans. It's democratic government is replaced with a puppet German governor who disarms the country and makes it a vassal of Germany for economic and industrial exploitation.
World War I finally ends in 1918 with an armistice between Great Britain and the German Empire. Both sides are exhausted after a war of attrition. Germany is able to maintain its monarchy for many years after this. There are rebellions in newly occupied eastern Europe against Slavic groups and others. Germany may also invade the Soviet Union to replace it with a future friendly government sometime later. Germany controls most of continental Europe with economic control and is a world power.
World War I finally ends in 1918 with an armistice between Great Britain and the German Empire. Both sides are exhausted after a war of attrition. Germany is able to maintain its monarchy for many years after this. There are rebellions in newly occupied eastern Europe against Slavic groups and others. Germany may also invade the Soviet Union to replace it with a future friendly government sometime later. Germany controls most of continental Europe with economic control and is a world power.
They could have won if their enemies had made more mistakes, been less innovative, and be less willing to fight up to victory.
But the odds were had for Germany from the start. It had to fight on 2 fronts and to endure a naval blockade.
And It is not because of Belgium that Britain went to war. Britain went to war to prevent Germany from dominating the european continent.
Need to keep Britain out of the war. Ten years before the war dont get into a dick waving Battleship building contest with the Royal Navy and make Britain feel threatened.
RamscoopRaider
Donor
Need to keep the US out of the war, that happens and while victory isn't garunteed it is more likely than not
US stays out and the Entente runs out of dollars in early 1917 and can't buy more US goods and resources, which made up 25+% of what they were using. In addition without the US stopping it at the source, the bloackade will not become airtight and the central powers will be better supplied
Without the promise of US loans Russia bows out early. Italy may or may not bow out after Caporetto, with the morale loss of Russia bowing out, combined with no boost from the US joining in, and the possibility of the battle going even worse for them with less supplies
In any case when time for the Spring offensive comes the Germans will be slightly stronger, the Entente somewhat weaker (and having much smaller reserves without US trops), and the Germans will have withdrawn less and be closer to their objectives. If they make 10 miles more they take Amiens and Hazebrouk, if that happens the BEF withdraws to the channel ports or dies from starvation. That happens the French Army is outflanked and has to withdraw, leaving the coal mines feeding their war industry in German hands. If that occurs German victory becomes a matter of time
US stays out and the Entente runs out of dollars in early 1917 and can't buy more US goods and resources, which made up 25+% of what they were using. In addition without the US stopping it at the source, the bloackade will not become airtight and the central powers will be better supplied
Without the promise of US loans Russia bows out early. Italy may or may not bow out after Caporetto, with the morale loss of Russia bowing out, combined with no boost from the US joining in, and the possibility of the battle going even worse for them with less supplies
In any case when time for the Spring offensive comes the Germans will be slightly stronger, the Entente somewhat weaker (and having much smaller reserves without US trops), and the Germans will have withdrawn less and be closer to their objectives. If they make 10 miles more they take Amiens and Hazebrouk, if that happens the BEF withdraws to the channel ports or dies from starvation. That happens the French Army is outflanked and has to withdraw, leaving the coal mines feeding their war industry in German hands. If that occurs German victory becomes a matter of time
Germany could've easily won via one of two scenarios:
One- by some diplomatic move keeping Russia out of the Anglo-French alliance. doing so would free up all their forces to take on the French before Britain could really move.
Two- stay on the defensive in the west and concentrate on the east and the Balkans. Keeping Italy from backsliding out of the Triple Alliance would help.
Both require keeping the US neutral.
One- by some diplomatic move keeping Russia out of the Anglo-French alliance. doing so would free up all their forces to take on the French before Britain could really move.
Two- stay on the defensive in the west and concentrate on the east and the Balkans. Keeping Italy from backsliding out of the Triple Alliance would help.
Both require keeping the US neutral.
LordKalvert
Banned
Given that Bonar Law and Lord Lansdowne wrote the cabinet that the Tories considered that
'It would be fatal to the honour and security of the United Kingdom to hesitate in supporting France and Russia at this juncture and we offer our unconditional support tot the Government in any measures they may consider necessary for this object"
Belgium doesn't decide British intervention it determines only that it intervenes with a Liberal government rather than a Conservative-Liberal Interventionist coaliiton
This is sent before the invasion of Belgium.
See Lions of July, page 326
If the Germans go East, all the Anglo-French really have to do is land some 12in Naval guns and pound away at the German Iron ore mines- they don't have to advance into Germany at all but twelve miles and they take them
Probably, almost definitely, not enough. It wasn't American troops that the allies needed (they had plenty of men both at home and in their colonies) but American supplies. As long as they could get them, the outcome of the war is inevitable
The Americans made some noise about cutting off the unsecured loans but the British had plenty of collateral and a reduction in British living standards (which hadn't suffered all that much compared to Austria and Germany) would do the trick
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LordKalvert
Banned
The Germans do have a few chances for victory but she really needs a relatively quick one.
There are, for example, a few opportunities to bag the French 5th Army and/or the BEF which would prove decisive- the Germans would push much deeper and force the collapse of the French Fortress line. Probably enough to keep Italy neutral
But by 1916, there aren't many that aren't ASB
The Germans are lucky enough as it is and their enemies make plenty of stupid blunders, It's more amazing that they got as far as they did
There are, for example, a few opportunities to bag the French 5th Army and/or the BEF which would prove decisive- the Germans would push much deeper and force the collapse of the French Fortress line. Probably enough to keep Italy neutral
But by 1916, there aren't many that aren't ASB
The Germans are lucky enough as it is and their enemies make plenty of stupid blunders, It's more amazing that they got as far as they did
The British and the French needed American troops. Don't forget that the French army mutinied in 1917.
The main factors would be can they keep the U.S. out of the war or join them rather than the UK and France(many in the nation supported Central Power's victory and the government had aided both sides) as well as if France would surrender or sue for peace(France nearly lost and was basically on the brink of collapse by the time the U.S. joined and had been for two years).
Caesar Biden
Banned
This is a delightfully simple idea that I haven't heard of before.
Would it have been enough for the Germans to reach Paris, though? I'm hesitant to say it's logistically impossible for them to do so (they accomplished the same in 1870 and 1940, the eras before and after, so clearly it's possible), but the odds would still be against them. The German armies at the Marne will still be disjointed and the French will still have more reinforcements to bring to the front. Perhaps the Germans can hold the line and not retreat as far as the Aisne, but a complete routing of the forces arrayed against them seems unlikely.
That being said, if the Germans in this scenario could outmaneuver the Entente and push them further south than they already are, the way to Paris will be fairly open. That's just a big if.
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LordKalvert
Banned
The question here is- if no American troops were available, could the British and French have found their equivalent elsewhere? Certainly much could be gleaned from British home, fortress and overseas establishments
They could, and would, also be able to make more use of their colonial populations. This is a fight to the death for these countries and your going to have to beat them till they are dry
If the French and the British had the equipment that was tied up in the AEF, that too is going a long way to solving their problems. A neutral America would certainly have sold them that
The Germans can't take Paris in 1914, it would be basically WWI's Stalingrad, it's safer to besiege.
The Germans, however, don't have the logistics for a siege in September 1914. In this case the best they can do is hold the line dangerously close to Paris and then race to the Channel capturing important points like Amiens and Pas de Calais.
The Germans, however, don't have the logistics for a siege in September 1914. In this case the best they can do is hold the line dangerously close to Paris and then race to the Channel capturing important points like Amiens and Pas de Calais.