Second front in Western Europe with neutral Italy?

POD: A random anarchist throws a grenade at Mussolini. Completely disfigured, he dies in horrible pain. Ciano becomes the next Duce and keeps Italy out of the war, though is German friendly (trade, alt-division azul, etc.).


The year is 1943. Where would the Western allies open a second front in the West and relieve Stalin of some pressure?
-Scandinavia? Poor terrain, but close to the USSR
-Earlier Normandy? South France? Both?
-Caucasus through Iran? Seems a stretch.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
There wouldn't be anything like the same situation in Europe in 1943. This butterflies away the entire African Front, thus placing the W.Allies in the position of being able to:
1) Reinforce Singapore early - with fleet and land units.
2) Prepare for some kind of landing in Europe much earlier.

In all honesty, I think you need to start at the anarchist's bomb and work forwards. Among other things, if this is pre-Anschluss then it might lead to an intact Stresa Front...
 
There wouldn't be anything like the same situation in Europe in 1943. This butterflies away the entire African Front, thus placing the W.Allies in the position of being able to:
1) Reinforce Singapore early - with fleet and land units.
2) Prepare for some kind of landing in Europe much earlier.

In all honesty, I think you need to start at the anarchist's bomb and work forwards. Among other things, if this is pre-Anschluss then it might lead to an intact Stresa Front...

To give a rough idea of my TL so far: God strikes Mussolini late 1939/early 1940, Anschluss already happen and Italy is German-aligned, but neutral. France fell. No invasion of Greece, not too sure about Yugoslavia. The Germans are more successful in Barbarossa and basically Moscow is TTL's Stalingrad. In '43 Stalin has reconquered most of the RSFSR except Leningrad and Caucasus, but could use some help.

My question is more about where would the Allies invade. 1942 seems too early, and they would likely concentrate on Japan at this point.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
To give a rough idea of my TL so far: God strikes Mussolini late 1939/early 1940, Anschluss already happen and Italy is German-aligned, but neutral. France fell. No invasion of Greece, not too sure about Yugoslavia. The Germans are more successful in Barbarossa and basically Moscow is TTL's Stalingrad. In '43 Stalin has reconquered most of the RSFSR except Leningrad and Caucasus, but could use some help.

My question is more about where would the Allies invade. 1942 seems too early, and they would likely concentrate on Japan at this point.
That's an awful lot of things going the way of the Germans. Moscow is a big ask because the 1941 advance isn't limited by troop numbers but by logistics. Railroad conversion, that kind of thing.
After 1941, Moscow's basically an impenetrable nut to crack.
Actually, I have to wonder if the Allies would start things off in a TL vaguely like this by trying for coup-de-main landing via Greece - friendly or not. (Yugoslavia is going to happen, that was the result of massive riots after the signing of the Iron Pact.)
 

Deleted member 1487

Allied shipping concerns are tremendously reduced due to no need to divert around the Mediterranean, while the naval threat allows them to seriously reinforce Singapore if needed. No North Africa allows all sorts of reserves to be moved around to other theaters.
There is probably no Iraq rebellion without Italy in the war, no Greece invasion saves the Germans from moving in there, but also saves the British a lot. Yugoslavia still probably happens and might be a parallel Italian war to grab the whole things, a la 'A Fitter Italian Military'.

So no Italy in the war is a major help to Britain and a deficit at the same time early on, because it keeps the Germans focused on Britain as the only place to fight in 1940-41. It saves the Germans a lot of trouble, resources (both military and economic), but it does the same for the British. 1940-41 largely goes the same, but beyond that thing start to diverge. Britain is focused on Northwest Europe and Norway, so will be putting pressure on there.

The US entry will pretty much mean they have no choice but to invade France in 1943 and try to put a lot of aerial pressure on Germany in 1942 in France/the Lowlands, but it let's Germany keep its limited assets concentrated. The lack of losses and diversion of resources in the Mediterranean and lack of ability of the Allies to even reach Romania saves in 1943 10-15% of its AAA assets along with a lot of fighters and other defenses (radar, smoke generators), which then end up in Germany and the West, which is a serious reinforcement. 1940-43 deprives the Allies of the ability to get any combat experience against the Germans, so they are walking into a French invasion without a lot of the assets they had accumulated IOTL, such as diverting German resources south, the Tunisian defeats, dispersing German resources over a number of theaters, having bases to hit Austria and the Balkans, etc.

1943 is going to be a force on force situation, but without the oil pipeline in place in Britain or the Mulberry harbors ready. Plus all the forces that were in the Mediterranean and Italy can appear in France to counter an invasion.

But the big deal is going to be in the East; without the Mediterranean diversion and Greece, the Axis will have a sizeable increase in forces to use in 1941-43 against the Soviets. Depending on what the Italians do with Yugoslavia, the Germans might not even have to deal with that. The lack of Italians in the East will hurt in 1942, but is offset by greater German forces not locked down in supporting Italy, so it pretty much a wash. This means significantly more damage to the Soviets in 1941-43 until the Allied attempts in France.

Uranus might not be pulled off ITTL, especially if the Germans have to fill in the gap left by having no Italian 8th army and the historical Panzer Armee Afrika available, plus all the occupation troops used in Greece/Yugoslavia IOTL. Leningrad might fall in 1941 with the Afrika Korps used in the East, plus the FJs and the aircraft saved from Greece.

So come 1943 the Eastern Front could be a different situation, with significant German assets available to repel and invasion attempt in France. It will be bloody regardless and might well fail. But the Allies will attempt it. I think they will pressure Italy, but if Italy isn't interested in the risk, they will demure in 1943, but eventually jump in to secure their interests in Austria and the Balkans when the situation is ripe (i.e. the Germans are weak enough).

Personally I think the war will go better for Germany until 1944 when things start falling apart sooner, while the situation for Japan is pretty much worse from the beginning. The Allies end up taking more losses against Germany overall, as they cannot bring their superior numbers to bear as effectively, while the Germans area able to avoid issues of OTL of trying to defend everywhere at once and dispersing their limited strength. The Soviets take more damage in 1941-43 and probably then aren't as effective in 1942-44 ITTL until the Wallies are able to really inflict significant damage through attrition. IMHO the Soviets end up further East at the end and the Wallies get further in Germany, but at a higher cost and the Italians end up collapsing Germany sooner when they enter the war and let Wallied forces into their territory, pretty much then on Austria's border, rather than stuck just entering into Northern Italy in 1945 like IOTL.

If the Wallied 1943 invasion of France doesn't work they will try again in 1944 and succeed, then invading Southern France, and pressuring Italy into joining the war by the end of the year.
 
My take is the invasion of the French north African colonies takes place sooner, if it is done at all. If the Allies decide to invade NW Europe in 1943 there are some advantages to having Petains government & his little army still in existance. Petains army is unlikely to survive Operation Gymnast or any similar Allied invasion of North Africa. The Germans simply will not trust having a French Army whatever size still standing.

If the Allies still dont want to invade France in 1943 then Norway is a alternative. Landing in the extreme north could threaten the German forces in northern Finnland/Karelia. Landing further south might acquire some airbases to harrass Germany with heavy bombers from another direction than England.
 

thaddeus

Donor
My take is the invasion of the French north African colonies takes place sooner, if it is done at all. If the Allies decide to invade NW Europe in 1943 there are some advantages to having Petains government & his little army still in existance. Petains army is unlikely to survive Operation Gymnast or any similar Allied invasion of North Africa. The Germans simply will not trust having a French Army whatever size still standing.


my scenario would be that Germany has courted Vichy regime a bit more than IOTL.

without concerns for Italy they might allow the French fleet to reinforce Syria (which they wanted to do)

short of outright warfare there would have been several conflicts with Great Britain by 1942 -1943

would/could this lead to avoiding invasion of France to eliminate possible French civil war?
 
An invasion of Southern France?
Seems logical and an awkward situation for the Germans. Will have to move troops south through Vichy and perhaps ask them for help. A good area to land in with no naval cover and a strain for the Germans to divert resources to. British could take Corsica first and use for a base, particular for the RAF. With the alps covering the North the British could hold there and just be a drain on germans resources. this then makes Normandy more open when the US join.
This would probably allow an earlier Normandy and a quicker end to the war.
Add to this things others have said, British dominate the Mediterranean and probably hold Singapore
 
my scenario would be that Germany has courted Vichy regime a bit more than IOTL.

without concerns for Italy they might allow the French fleet to reinforce Syria (which they wanted to do)

short of outright warfare there would have been several conflicts with Great Britain by 1942 -1943

would/could this lead to avoiding invasion of France to eliminate possible French civil war?
IMO, if an Invasion of France looks likely to succeed, the French will take up arms against the Germans no matter how much the Germans want them on side.
 
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IMO, if an Invasion of France looks likey to succeed, the French will take up arms againstthe Germans no matter how much the Germans want them on side.

Also, if the invasion goes well, Italy might declare war on Germany to get their share of the spoils. A alpine front wouldn't be moving that fast, but it would be a resource drain for the germans.
 
Not convinced on the early date for D-day. Like Barbarossa the key deciding factor (they are lots of little helpers that all need to be squared away too) is the logistics. The number of landing craft was insufficient in 1943 to the scale of operation required. I am not sure how long it took to test and finalise the design for the Mulberry Harbours but I think that given 1942 for a likely Dieppe style effort (if not Dieppe) then 1943 becomes problematic.

Add in the need for air supremacy and defeat of the u-boat and again we see things pushed back to 1944, remember each delay that pushes an invasion outside the summer means postponement till the next year as winter is a no go.
 
Not convinced on the early date for D-day. Like Barbarossa the key deciding factor (they are lots of little helpers that all need to be squared away too) is the logistics. The number of landing craft was insufficient in 1943 to the scale of operation required. I am not sure how long it took to test and finalise the design for the Mulberry Harbours but I think that given 1942 for a likely Dieppe style effort (if not Dieppe) then 1943 becomes problematic.

Add in the need for air supremacy and defeat of the u-boat and again we see things pushed back to 1944, remember each delay that pushes an invasion outside the summer means postponement till the next year as winter is a no go.
Italy being out of the war makes a VAST difference to the logistics, to wit:
f0516.jpg


See all that shipping going through the Mediterranean? In OTL, that had to be replaced with either material sourced from the US, or the ships had to go around the Cape. TTL, they'll probably liberate Corsica pretty early in order to give them air cover against bombers based in France, but apart from that they've pretty much got a free run for convoys (or even possibly unescorted ships) through the Med.

Oh, and not at all convinced about landings in Greece - Yugoslavia may have been occupied by the Germans, but it's terrible terrain for armoured warfare (which the British emphasised very heavily - they had more tanks per man than the Americans) and doesn't really lead anywhere. I think northern France is still the most likely route, and that 1943 is plausible given the vastly improved logistics made available (and the fact that with no Italy in the war the British can deploy a far larger fleet to Singapore, taking the pressure of the US shipbuilding industry somewhat).
 
IMO, if an Invasion of France looks likey to succeed, the French will take up arms againstthe Germans no matter how much the Germans want them on side.

It is claimed Admiral Darlan put it to the US ambassador this way: 'If you come with three divisions we will fight you, if you come with twenty we will join you.'

There is also a claim that Dill, while CIGS, cultivated contacts with Petains government and devised a plan for sending material aid to the Vichy army. Both these items he kept secret from Churchill.

What is fairly clear from historians like Paxton 'Vichy France' & Jacksons 'The Dark Years' is Petains policy foundation was the restoration of French power relative to Germany. In this he ran crossways with collaborationists like Laval & a number of senior army officers who did not see the British or US as Allies in this. My take is the Allied invasion of NW Africa came late in relation to French politics. Had the smaller scale Gymnast operation been run earlier in the year there may have been less resistance. The diplomatic preparation could have been better as well. Clarks mission was prevented from contacting Darlan, which may have hindered Op Torch.
 

thaddeus

Donor
my scenario would be that Germany has courted Vichy regime a bit more than IOTL.

without concerns for Italy they might allow the French fleet to reinforce Syria (which they wanted to do)

short of outright warfare there would have been several conflicts with Great Britain by 1942 -1943

would/could this lead to avoiding invasion of France to eliminate possible French civil war?

IMO, if an Invasion of France looks likey to succeed, the French will take up arms againstthe Germans no matter how much the Germans want them on side.

It is claimed Admiral Darlan put it to the US ambassador this way: 'If you come with three divisions we will fight you, if you come with twenty we will join you.'

What is fairly clear from historians like Paxton 'Vichy France' & Jacksons 'The Dark Years' is Petains policy foundation was the restoration of French power relative to Germany. In this he ran crossways with collaborationists like Laval & a number of senior army officers who did not see the British or US as Allies in this. My take is the Allied invasion of NW Africa came late in relation to French politics. Had the smaller scale Gymnast operation been run earlier in the year there may have been less resistance.

my speculation was whether, without Italy in the war, the Vichy regime might have been subjected to more attacks by British.

and conversely more support from Germany. there was one instance where, during British invasion of Syria, French were denied use of their cruisers to reinforce (presume due to Italian prerogatives.)

not suggesting Axis France but whether, with even worse anti-British sentiment, Allied landings in France might have to be avoided.

resulting in US. troops sent to Egypt (?) then Balkans (despite obstacles) and from Great Britain to Norway?
 
With Italy not in the war, that means Japan is less likely to join the war. Britain is a lot stronger, and the Americans aren't any weaker. The US might even be stronger in the Pacific than historically - I don't think the US will see the need to transfer part of the Pacific Fleet to the Atlantic in 1941.

How does the US enter the war in this scenario?

Assuming the US is in the war, an invasion of France in 1943 seems doable to me. The Axis has fewer forces opposing the USSR (no Italian army in the south), Britain is stronger than in OTL, and the Allies are likely not fighting Japan.
 
With a neutral Italy, there might be a case for France setting up a government in exile in North Africa a la France Fights On.
 
my speculation was whether, without Italy in the war, the Vichy regime might have been subjected to more attacks by British.

and conversely more support from Germany. there was one instance where, during British invasion of Syria, French were denied use of their cruisers to reinforce (presume due to Italian prerogatives.)

not suggesting Axis France but whether, with even worse anti-British sentiment, Allied landings in France might have to be avoided.

resulting in US. troops sent to Egypt (?) then Balkans (despite obstacles) and from Great Britain to Norway?
I can't see a situation where anti-British sentiment was greater than anti-German sentiment in France.

With a neutral Italy, there might be a case for France setting up a government in exile in North Africa a la France Fights On.
A France that carries on the fight from Africa is likely to make the Big 3 a Big 4.
 
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I don't get the question.

In OTL, the Allies invaded Southern France, Greece and of course Normandy.

With no Silicy invasion, I suppose another route could have been an expanded force in Greece, which eventually joined with the Soviets in Bulgaria.
 
I don't get the question.

In OTL, the Allies invaded Southern France, Greece and of course Normandy.

With no Silicy invasion, I suppose another route could have been an expanded force in Greece, which eventually joined with the Soviets in Bulgaria.

If there is no Italian invasion then Greece is neutral. So for the Allies to use Greece as a staging base for an invasion of Europe they have to convince Greece to join a war from which Athens derives no apparent benefit. What can the Allies do to make it worth it to the Greeks?

The other option is for the Allies to declare war on Greece, invade, and occupy it. That will not go over well.
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
Scandinavia 1942 (assuming the USA and USSR are in the fight basically on schedule) with France in 1943.

Terrain is rough in Norway (but was rough in southern Europe too), cold and bad weather is more extreme. But Norway is pretty skinny. You don't need to gain much ground before you reach neutral Swedish territory and split the defending German forces.

Maybe Norway is tried and fails in '42, but its the only game in town, except perhaps Corsica, until France in 1943. The WAllies are going to try France starting in '43 and keep trying the next year if it doesn't work on the first try.

Free shipping in the Mediterranean means that convoys can deliver to Soviet Black Sea ports as soon as they are recovered. That's great for the Soviets.

If the allies do not fail with the Norwegian invasion of '42 and grab a good chunk of it, Norway (or Norway-Sweden) may become the "Italian front" of this war. In follow on ops in '43 the Allies may gain more of Scandinavia and pose an amphibious threat to Denmark and targets in the Baltic.

"1943 is going to be a force on force situation, but without the oil pipeline in place in Britain or the Mulberry harbors ready."

I wonder if it would be possible to develop this infrastructure and equipment early. The speed of equipping or supporting any force, including with new designs, is a function not only advancing invention, inspiration and technology, but also a function of resources (human and material) thrown at priority problems. Maybe we could have artificial harbors and oil pipelines ready by summer 1943.
 
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