Treaty of Amiens: A different Versailles

The Treaty of Amiens September 15th 1917
Theobald Bethmann-Hollweg was dead; the Chancellor of the German Reich had died of a suspected heart attack on May 10th 1915. The public believed that this was caused by overwork and the stress caused by the Lusitania sinking. The U.S. had declared war on Germany, but Franz Von Papen the German ambassador to the U.S. had ensured the Kaiser that the U.S. would be able to offer any serious resistance in its present economic and military state. Thus the unrestrained submarine warfare continued per the orders of Hugo Von Pohl the Commander of the High Seas fleet.
3 months later 250,000 tons of Entente shipping had been sunk. 19 months later with an enlarged fleet of 111 submarines 5.3 million tons of shipping had been sunk. Britain on breaking point, being an island nation she relied heavily on imports, imports which weren’t coming. Then in February 1917 Von Falkenhayn, the German Chief of General Staff, unleashed a new plan the Falkenhayn Offensive (this is similar to the Ludendorff Offensive OTL, but the forces include large cavalry divisions). This offensive swept through the Entente Lines, backed by some tanks. But outside the town of Ypres was the worst fighting, British troops were prevented from retreating by a cavalry manoeuvre blocking the main road out of Ypres and were encircled. This resulted in the near-total slaughter of the British troops in the town.
On the 3rd May 1917 Britain surrendered. Asquith informed King George V of the Cabinet’s decision to surrender and then resigned with the rest of his Cabinet. Russia surrendered the following week and the Tsar abdicated and was replaced by his more popular brother Grand Duke Michael following a referendum. France agreed to sign a peace treaty the next day.
Entente and Central Powers dignitaries met in the German occupied town of Amiens for peace negotiations. Under the directions of the level-headed and shrewd Wilhelm Von Bismarck (who survived the peritonitis that killed him IOTL) ,Bethmann-Hollweg’s replacement as Chancellor, Germany offered a not unreasonable (in their view) peace deal:
1. Germany is allowed to annex Luxembourg and the Baltic states (these are the states they ‘annexed’ following the Brest-Litovsk Treaty IOTL).
2. An independent Poland is set up in the along the borders of Congress Poland.
3. Certain regions of the Austro-Hungarian Empire are granted autonomy in exchange for the Austro-Hungarian annexation of Venetia, Italian Libya and Malta (Italy had joined the Allies scarcely 2 weeks before the POD and Germany is bitter at this betrayal, furthermore Italy failed to attend the Amiens Conference)
4. Italy is granted ‘control’ of Albania.
5. Germany keeps all her colonies but Shandong and Samoa.
6. No reparations are required from either side.
7. An independent Arab state is formed encompassing Arabia and Ottoman Hejaz. The Ottomans are granted the Dodecanese Islands.

Seeing no other alternative the Entente powers (but Italy) signed the Treaty of Amiens.

treaty of amiens.png
 
Sorry but the British will give away Malta the day of never (too strategical important and frankly the CP can demand from UK basically nothing as they don't have any possibility of enforcing except asking very politely...the unrestriced sub war if continued will just bring the US in the war a couple of years earlier so London say thank you and all the material used in the subs mean less on other place, better drop it) and only the most idiotic of brain damaged men on Vienna will want to annex more italian land or even some worthless colony that they need to pacify and ...and btw at this stage there is no Caporetto so italian troops are still on Austrian territory, basically the answer of Rome will be:
if you want Veneto...please try to take it.
. More probably some minor revision of the border to make thing easier for Austria in case of war...but at this stage even this is a strecht

Otherwise is credible but make Serbia and Montenegro Austrian puppet as this was the principal objective of Vienna and drop the autonomy of Croatia so the Magyar don't revolt or half of Vienna goverment have a stroke...so everyone had something.
 
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The map simply shows the world according to the Treaty, this isn't actually what the world looks like. Also Britain has no choice in terms of Malta due to their crippling by the submarine campaign. However, they will probably retake it later from the weak Austria navy, the same can be said for the Italian possessions 'annexed' by the Austrians.:)
 
The map simply shows the world according to the Treaty, this isn't actually what the world looks like. Also Britain has no choice in terms of Malta due to their crippling by the submarine campaign. However, they will probably retake it later from the weak Austria navy, the same can be said for the Italian possessions 'annexed' by the Austrians.:)

The problem is more or less the same of before aka 'why the CP stop or the Entente continue?'...on one side they are win big and from the other they need just to wait to the US to come.

As said if you throw away the nonsense about A-H even desire a colony, Malta or Venetia and replace it with Serbia and Montenegro (the real objective of the war and at least this was already occupied and they don't need to launch a full assault on Italy to occupy the place) plus eliminate the tip about the 'crippling' submarine warfare (yes it was important and put a serious blow to the British...but is not that they were not without countmeasures or facing and invincible weapon, sorry but your numbers are just the wet dream of the admirals high on coke).

Put some enphasis over the German reatreat on Belgium (and they agree to pay them some compensation) and make them lose some other colonies (frankly everybody know that they are undefendible moneysink) like Togoland and Cameroon.
 
The map simply shows the world according to the Treaty, this isn't actually what the world looks like. Also Britain has no choice in terms of Malta due to their crippling by the submarine campaign. However, they will probably retake it later from the weak Austria navy, the same can be said for the Italian possessions 'annexed' by the Austrians.:)

I didn't see Austria - Hungary getting Venice, Libya and Malta and then Italy getting Albania. It should be Italy keeping Venice and Libya and Austria-Hungary getting puppet control of Serbia, Albania and Montenegro. Also Italy can't build forts for X miles on the border with Austria.

Also Britain wasn't going to give up Malta.

Also the Central Powers and their puppet states could form a trade bloc. Germany, Austria-Hungary, Bulgaria, Ottomans, Poland, Serbia, Montenegro and Albania would form a powerful trade bloc. Germany could also continue the Berlin - Istanbul Railway since they control all the land.
 
I didn't see Austria - Hungary getting Venice, Libya and Malta and then Italy getting Albania. It should be Italy keeping Venice and Libya and Austria-Hungary getting puppet control of Serbia, Albania and Montenegro. Also Italy can't build forts for X miles on the border with Austria.

Also Britain wasn't going to give up Malta.

Also the Central Powers and their puppet states could form a trade bloc. Germany, Austria-Hungary, Bulgaria, Ottomans, Poland, Serbia, Montenegro and Albania would form a powerful trade bloc. Germany could also continue the Berlin - Istanbul Railway since they control all the land.

I see more the entire situation as more or less a 'fait accomplit' situation.
Germany keep the baltic and puppetize Poland due to possession as A-H do with Serbia and Montenegro.
Italy control Albania as she's in possession of the place as Germany loose the bulk of his colonies
 

Sure but Italy still control Vlore (the most important part) and Albania is a hotbed of rebellion and civil war and frankly Austria will already have his problem controlling Serbia.
Plus at the moment is not that the situation is very good for the Hapsburg in general and the Emperor on Vienna want just end the war but with something to show for the effort and Serbia and Montenegro (plus whatever they have took from Romania) will do the trick...at least in theory.

Frankly at this stage the treaty need to be something that everyone can live with it (in general everyone gain and loose something) but at the same time all hate it.
 
"yes it was important and put a serious blow to the British...but is not that they were not without countmeasures or facing and invincible weapon, sorry but your numbers are just the wet dream of the admirals high on coke."

In regard to the figures, see 'More What If: Eminent Historians Imagine What Might Have Been' Edited by Robert Cowley and the section entitled 'the Great War Torpedoed'. (I changed the final outcome of the war in comparison to the essay.)
I accept that some of the treaty is outlandish. But as I said, Britain surrendered so she doesn't really have a say in the treaty nor do the other entente members.
Again I will try to improve it, but after this second negative response, only people are interested in it.
 
Sure but Italy still control Vlore (the most important part) and Albania is a hotbed of rebellion and civil war and frankly Austria will already have his problem controlling Serbia.
Plus at the moment is not that the situation is very good for the Hapsburg in general and the Emperor on Vienna want just end the war but with something to show for the effort and Serbia and Montenegro (plus whatever they have took from Romania) will do the trick...at least in theory.

Frankly at this stage the treaty need to be something that everyone can live with it (in general everyone gain and loose something) but at the same time all hate it.

Well at minimum breaking off the Northern part of Albania that is Catholic could work for the Austrians. They already hold it and could be worth it to give a buffer.

The Italians could then hold their Southern part and try and pry the Central Muslim part from Austria. It might Initially stay Austrian but I can see it going Italian in a year.
 
In regard to the figures, see 'More What If: Eminent Historians Imagine What Might Have Been' Edited by Robert Cowley and the section entitled 'the Great War Torpedoed'. (I changed the final outcome of the war in comparison to the essay.)
I accept that some of the treaty is outlandish. But as I said, Britain surrendered so she doesn't really have a say in the treaty nor do the other entente members.
Again I will try to improve it, but after this second negative response, only people are interested in it.

Well i like the general idea of the TL, i just think that she need some tuning and while UK surrendered...there is surrender and there is surrender (aka a white peace is the max that the CP can obtain) plus the terms to Italy mean that she will go down fighting as she don't have anything to lose

Regarding the Cowley anthology IMHO are just a bunch of hit and miss put together by some professor ready for a quick buck or to wank his own little pet, in poor word that scenario IMHO is full of...well you can image what.
Expecially if the USA enter the war even earlier, this mean that the CP are finished, kaputt, over and everyone knows it...no matter what victory they get on the field.
So the treaty need to take in consideration that, basically Germany and Austria need to cut their loss and grab whatever they can and finish it while winning
 
The Ottomans already owned those island you are ceding to them, which had been leased to Italy after that war where the they had seized Libya (Though even after WWI the Italians only ever controlled a few towns, making the chance of the Austrians taking over unlikely.). The lease was due to run out anyways in a few years so the Turks would want more of a reward than that for all their services. Heck, around the time the Ottomans entered the war they even ceded a large town to Bulgaria so as to remove any sticking point between the two allies. To complety give up on their claims to the southern coast of the Persian Gulf as well as their rule over the Hejaz despite in this map still having their claimed sovereignty over Egypt? Better they be the ones to regain Libya and keep what most saw as a worthless chunk of desert to be open to business to the Central Powers. Not that they would care. There is a reason after all why the French and British expanded it's size so much with desert lands from their own colonies. Might as well throw in Cyprus, if the British are throwing away bases, since that was also legally still Ottoman.

There are also the issues of Croatia-Slavonia and Dalmatia being united in a seperate state instead of being kept divided or simply adding Bosnia-Herzovigina to it and make it a third kingdom in the system or simply keep it as a kingdom within the empire that was in union with the Emperor in his role as King of Hungary. Besides, with a new empire overseas the Austro-Hungarians would need those ports of theirs. Venice can't really compete, especially since it is as far from the mouth of the Adriatic as you can get and was somewhat... Undesirable.


I see problems in the Dominions. The South Africans wouldn't want to give up their newly conquered colony in Namibia, nor would the New Zealanders with Samoa. They would looks to how the Australians got to keep their chunk or even how the Japanese too the German possessions in Asia not just north of the Equator as agreed, but also Nauru, which IOTL was a jointly occupation area between the British, New Zealanders, and Australians. That, and I have my doubts about the British giving up the land they conquered in Togo, Kameron, or Tanganyika. Sure, they gave the vast majority of the first two to the French iOTL and there was still some Germans moving from the last into Rhodezia and Mozambique, but the Germans would need to give up claims on some. Given the colonies in Namibia, I am guessing they wouldn't even control all of it.

As for Italy.... They would not have the French and British give up strategic areas in the Horn, let alone get the Ethiopians to agree to the Italian claimed border. The French stayed in that area until near the end of decolonization, as it was a main port for getting to the Indian Ocean for them, as well as a way to control the Ethiopian economy by being the place the imports and exports went. That is why the Laval.something pact for diving Ethiopia IOTL had the Corridor for Camels clause. It involved the Ethiopians giving up their most valuable areas but getting a small bit of coast land, just so long as they couldn't build a port there.
 
Von Falkenhayn can't be Chief of Staff in 1917 because he was replaced with Von Hindenburg in August 1916, because of the almighty bloodbath that was the Battle of Verdun. And can I ask how an earlier usage of unrestricted submarine warfare doesn't end up being solved with the introduction of convoys?
 
With colonies maybe the Germans can bargin them going out of Belguim for German East Africa (with the western part maybe being given to Britian for the Cape to Cairo railway) and then keeping German west Africa (may have to shave off bits). Cameroon and Togo aren't worth it and can just be let go.

The other colonies can just be dropped maybe for token gains or for keeping their stuff elsewhere.
 
Thanks for the ideas :). Can I ask how many of you would be interested in a TL on this idea, and maybe even help to write one with me?
Please respond.
 
A collaboration would be great, would you be prepared to work with others interested as well as me? I could write the section of the thread and post it on here and then you edit it. Then that is then put onto (when we have enough words) a finished timeline thread.:D
 
Great, I'll put up the next installment soon. Please do edit to original installment to your satisfaction, but try not to change it too much :D.
 
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The Treaty of Amiens September 15th 1917
Theobald Bethmann-Hollweg was dead; the Chancellor of the German Reich had died of a suspected heart attack on May 10th 1915. The public believed that this was caused by overwork and the stress caused by the Lusitania sinking. The U.S. had declared war on Germany, but Franz Von Papen the German ambassador to the U.S. had ensured the Kaiser that the U.S. wouldn't be able to offer any serious resistance in its present economic and military state...at least for some time Thus the unrestrained submarine warfare continued per the orders of Hugo Von Pohl the Commander of the High Seas fleet.
Then in February 1917 Von Falkenhayn, the German Chief of General Staff, unleashed a new plan the Falkenhayn Offensive (this is similar to the Ludendorff Offensive OTL, but the forces include large cavalry divisions). This offensive swept through the Entente Lines, backed by some tanks. But outside the town of Ypres was the worst fighting, British troops were prevented from retreating by a cavalry manoeuvre blocking the main road out of Ypres and were encircled. This resulted in the near-total slaughter of the British troops in the town. [/FONT]
On the 3rd May 1917 the goverment of Russia lead by prime minister Kerensky in name of the newly crowed Tsar Michel asked the term for peace. The following week the British goverment received a German diplomatic proposal for peace negotiations; Asquith informed King George V of the Cabinet’s decision to accept it, as the war was becoming too unpopular and the recent defeat at Ypres and Russian surrender were too much. The americans were just arrived in France and there will need sometime before they will be ready for an offensive and time was something that they don't have. The French goverment agreed to sign a peace treaty the next day, while Italy accepted the ceasefire a couple of days later.
German rationale for launching this peace offensive was that time was not on their side, while the Russian surrender had relieved a lot of pressure from them, the blockade greatly affected the welfare of the population and her allies were faltering, as the Hapsburg Emperor not very subtly had make his desire to ask peace term in the near future, very clear; not even considering the continuing arrive of fresh american troops that more sooner than later will have tip the balance in favour of th Entente
Entente and Central Powers dignitaries met in the German occupied town of Amiens for peace negotiations. Under the directions of the level-headed and shrewd Wilhelm Von Bismarck (who survived the peritonitis that killed him IOTL) ,Bethmann-Hollweg’s replacement as Chancellor, Germany offered a not unreasonable (in their view) peace deal:
1. Germany is allowed to annex Luxembourg and the Baltic states (these are the states they ‘annexed’ following the Brest-Litovsk Treaty IOTL).
2. An independent Poland is set up in the along the borders of Congress Poland, with Archduke Charles Stephen of Austria as King.
3. The Kingdom of Serbia and Montenego will enter the Austrian sphere of influence
4. Italy is granted ‘control’ of Albania.
5. Germany forfeit all her colonies except German east Africa.
Germany will proceed to retreat from Belgium and the other occupied territories as soon as possible.
6. No reparations are required from either side, except the compensation granted at Belgium for the devastation caused by the german invasion.
7. An independent Arab state is formed encompassing Arabia and Ottoman Hejaz. The Ottomans are granted the Dodecanese Islands.

Seeing no other alternative the Entente powers (but Italy, who left the negotiation after a month due to her demand being not even discussed. The proper peace treaty between Italy and the CP was signed a couple of months later, ) signed the Treaty of Amiens.

Ok this is my version, hope is ok
 
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