WI Nestorian Japan/Korea
- Thread starter Gian
- Start date
scholar
Banned
They were a prominent short-term minority formed from a silk road community that attained some level of acceptance in the Tang Dynasty, but they were wiped out after An Lushan through a combination of both the immense upheaval that spread throughout northern and northwestern China (which was their home) and the later immense crackdown and persecution of all things "non-Chinese" by the reformed Tang. The Nestorians remained somewhat prominent as a minority group in the Uighur lands, and also benefited from some initial patronage by the Mongols. Nestorianism may have achieved a major revival, but they ultimately fell out of favor with a reposition among the Mongols to Islam in the West and Buddhism in the East, as a result Nestorianism fell out of favor and seemed to disappear completely when the Ming rose to power and began another anti-foreign culture wave. The last group may have faded out of existence in China just about the same time Catholic Jesuit Missionaries were starting to influence the Ming Dynasty.
Probably the best bet behind this would be a more prominent and successful Nestorian church and mission under the Tang Dynasty, and then have it spread to Japan and Korea back when the were very susceptible to Chinese osmosis. A slow and steady growth that is made alongside compromises with the existing cultures so that it becomes syncretic is probably the most successful way to make it happen, until it becomes patronized by a prince.
I have to agree on this. Mongols embracing it would help.
A key issue is that the Koreans were never really submissive to the Mongols (submissive but not).
I would say a lot of it depends on how and why Korea and Japan convert. I could forsee a timeline where a Chinese emperor converts, in essentially a Nestorian-wank. China eventually begins invading their heathen neighbors, which causes the Japanese to convert after the Koreans are fored to. To the emperor, justification may be similar to why Indonesia became muslim after trading for so long with muslim arab merchants. However Japan's christianity could develop into something distinctly Japanese. I could see Japan and China both being much more active with exploration and colonization if their emperors adopt Christianity as the new Mandate of Heaven, giving proselytation as a reason to seek out other peoples and lands.
I imagine an emperor of either country remarking to how far the word of Christ had to travel to save the souls of the middle kingdom, and that as the center of the universe it was now their duty to spread it to everything under the sun!
This would make for a fascinating timeline, no matter how unlikely or unrealistic; Chinese and Japanese christian sailed fleets interacting with Arabs and Hindus in Indonesia, and a complete change in dynamics when say the cossacks reach Manchuria, or when the Europeans start exploring the Pacific to find many of its islands and people's already Christian, though in theogical disagreement.
Anyone find this idea to be anything but asb? I mean unlikely sure, but the pod seems simple enough; just like Constantine, an emperor comes to like this new foreign religion and adopts it, saying that there is no difference between God's will and the mandate of heaven that gives emperors the right to rule for thousands of years.
I imagine an emperor of either country remarking to how far the word of Christ had to travel to save the souls of the middle kingdom, and that as the center of the universe it was now their duty to spread it to everything under the sun!
This would make for a fascinating timeline, no matter how unlikely or unrealistic; Chinese and Japanese christian sailed fleets interacting with Arabs and Hindus in Indonesia, and a complete change in dynamics when say the cossacks reach Manchuria, or when the Europeans start exploring the Pacific to find many of its islands and people's already Christian, though in theogical disagreement.
Anyone find this idea to be anything but asb? I mean unlikely sure, but the pod seems simple enough; just like Constantine, an emperor comes to like this new foreign religion and adopts it, saying that there is no difference between God's will and the mandate of heaven that gives emperors the right to rule for thousands of years.
Gian
Banned
Well, I kind of like the idea, especially if it might increase the perception of the East Asians as the so-called "Empires of Prester John" (as the Europeans at the time might call them).
Japan is gonna be a hard. How would you deal with their belief that the Mikado is a god already?
Here's what I find interesting.
What if the Mongols convert to Nestorian Christianity?
This idea has been proposed a lot, but...
What if the Mongols didn't conquer anybody (other than the Jin and Central Asia, perhaps)? Wouldn't they continue to be the intermediaries between China and a large portion of the world through the Silk Road? (There are other routes, granted, but whatever)
If we get northern China and especially the Song emperor to convert, I'm certain we can arrange things well enough to have a Nestorian China by 1400-1500 (the POD would be in like 1200).
What if the Mongols convert to Nestorian Christianity?
This idea has been proposed a lot, but...
What if the Mongols didn't conquer anybody (other than the Jin and Central Asia, perhaps)? Wouldn't they continue to be the intermediaries between China and a large portion of the world through the Silk Road? (There are other routes, granted, but whatever)
If we get northern China and especially the Song emperor to convert, I'm certain we can arrange things well enough to have a Nestorian China by 1400-1500 (the POD would be in like 1200).
How do you prevent the Mongols from ever thinking about military conquests? This might need a stronger Chinese dynasty.
trurle
Banned
First, pre-conditions for Christian Korea and Japan
1) POD must happen before 384 A.D. (afterwards, Buddhism spread virally in Baekje and 200 years later, in Japan)
2) Korea (or at least Baekje+Gaya) must convert to Christianity first, followed by Japan (following patterns of religion spread by trade)
This is pretty much a challenge. The Christian early spread was until Panjin adjacent to Gogureyo state in 6th century. To convert Baekje+Gaya in 4th century, a special event is necessary.
Given constraints above, the only Christian people able to reach Japan in time were Northist Saint Thomas Christians (they were nominally Nestorian, although highly peculiar). They had an organization in South-West India in 3rd century.
Given lucky wind pattern in summer, a fleet of few Christian ships theoretically can stray from the trade expedition or military raid in Bengal Bay and end up in Gaya confederacy after an epic travel in late 3rd or early 4th century. Afterwards, used as mercenary in some local dynastic struggle, they take control of one of the city-states of Gaya.
At this point, they possess locally superior industrial technology, allowing them to trade and convert other Korean states, who are very susceptible to the conversion at the moment. After two generations, Baekje king select Christianity over Buddhism as the state religion, and export Christianity to Japan in 6th century.
Of course, the spread of Gogureyo in late 6th century and later the Tang onslaught on Gogureyo (Korea) is likely to crush the Korean Christian states. Even Japan will be heavily influenced, with resulting syncretism of Shinto-Hindu-Buddhism-Christian beliefs. Thousand-years long isolation from other Christian branches will also result in severe customs drift. Therefore, by 16th century the Christians of Japan will become the most exotic Christian sect ever, likely recognized as Christians only by few scholars.
1) POD must happen before 384 A.D. (afterwards, Buddhism spread virally in Baekje and 200 years later, in Japan)
2) Korea (or at least Baekje+Gaya) must convert to Christianity first, followed by Japan (following patterns of religion spread by trade)
This is pretty much a challenge. The Christian early spread was until Panjin adjacent to Gogureyo state in 6th century. To convert Baekje+Gaya in 4th century, a special event is necessary.
Given constraints above, the only Christian people able to reach Japan in time were Northist Saint Thomas Christians (they were nominally Nestorian, although highly peculiar). They had an organization in South-West India in 3rd century.
Given lucky wind pattern in summer, a fleet of few Christian ships theoretically can stray from the trade expedition or military raid in Bengal Bay and end up in Gaya confederacy after an epic travel in late 3rd or early 4th century. Afterwards, used as mercenary in some local dynastic struggle, they take control of one of the city-states of Gaya.
At this point, they possess locally superior industrial technology, allowing them to trade and convert other Korean states, who are very susceptible to the conversion at the moment. After two generations, Baekje king select Christianity over Buddhism as the state religion, and export Christianity to Japan in 6th century.
Of course, the spread of Gogureyo in late 6th century and later the Tang onslaught on Gogureyo (Korea) is likely to crush the Korean Christian states. Even Japan will be heavily influenced, with resulting syncretism of Shinto-Hindu-Buddhism-Christian beliefs. Thousand-years long isolation from other Christian branches will also result in severe customs drift. Therefore, by 16th century the Christians of Japan will become the most exotic Christian sect ever, likely recognized as Christians only by few scholars.
The institution's still pretty young at this stage.The Nestorians can deal with the Mikado the same way the other Christian groups dealt with the Germanic Pagans,who also believed that their kings were descended from gods.The issue is that to do all of that,they need a much stronger base in China,with the emperor adopting the religion. Now,how do you convince the emperor to adopt the religion?To reinforce his position as being endorsed by the Christian God permanently as opposed to there being a mandate of Heaven that could be rescinded?
PhilippeO
Banned
Naiman and Keraits are Nestorian. some circumstance could push them to migrate East to Manchurian plain. If some Manchurian dynasty - Balhae or Jin - embrace them, the faith could spread to Korea and Japan without Nestorian China.
Religiously they would be have to recognising spirits exists and absorb Mongolian/Manchurian shamanism. Japanese Kami could later be absorbed as spirits. with Nestorian Christians replacing Buddha with Jesus/God the Father while minor spirits/kami/saints do exists below them ?
Religiously they would be have to recognising spirits exists and absorb Mongolian/Manchurian shamanism. Japanese Kami could later be absorbed as spirits. with Nestorian Christians replacing Buddha with Jesus/God the Father while minor spirits/kami/saints do exists below them ?
There was a Nestorian Cemetary in Japan that dated from the early 2nd millennium or so, I recall reading, so you don't necessarily need for China to adopt Nestorianism to have Japan convert.
As for the thing of the Emperor being god, well, early on in Japan, the imperial cult wasn't necessarily as well established as it was in later eras. I read that one of the early Ashikaga shoguns (Takauji or Yoshimitsu, I forget which one of the two) was powerful and popular enough that if he had so chosen, he could've overthrown the emperor in a manner similar to what went on in China and effectively gotten away with it. The imperial cult wasn't completely impervious, and if Nestorianism can establish itself in a powerful enough faction, the imperial family could be replaced with a new Christian dynasty. The earlier this occurs, the more likely this is.
As for the thing of the Emperor being god, well, early on in Japan, the imperial cult wasn't necessarily as well established as it was in later eras. I read that one of the early Ashikaga shoguns (Takauji or Yoshimitsu, I forget which one of the two) was powerful and popular enough that if he had so chosen, he could've overthrown the emperor in a manner similar to what went on in China and effectively gotten away with it. The imperial cult wasn't completely impervious, and if Nestorianism can establish itself in a powerful enough faction, the imperial family could be replaced with a new Christian dynasty. The earlier this occurs, the more likely this is.