WI: Bismarck picks the Faroes-Iceland gap

Saphroneth

Banned
OTL the Bismarck took the Denmark Strait route to break out. This was considered the less likely route by the RN - possibly why the PoW and Hood were there.
What would have happened if the Bismarck had selected the Faroes-Iceland Gap instead? (I believe there were rather more ships there.)
Well, obviously the Hood isn't sunk, but what happens instead?
 
OTL the Bismarck took the Denmark Strait route to break out. This was considered the less likely route by the RN - possibly why the PoW and Hood were there.
What would have happened if the Bismarck had selected the Faroes-Iceland Gap instead? (I believe there were rather more ships there.)
Well, obviously the Hood isn't sunk, but what happens instead?
Wouldn't the Bismarck escape through in this scenario? At least Ark Royal may not be in time and it's possible Hood and Prince of Wales, while not damaged for the latter and not sunk for the former, might not be able to inflict damage on Bismarck. With the otl forces, the Bismarck might even sink two cruisers it if manages to intercept them, so they'll more likely send the battleships chasing Bismarck to fill the gap, especially with the Ultra decoding machine they have and the more likely possibility of Bismarck using the route. While butterflies might prevent the Hood's explosion, the Bismarck might survive as well and might even attack convoys in this scenario, which would be worse for Britain, although they have at least an extra battleship. And, an alternate Bismarck vs. Hood encounter may still get the Hood blowing up, although more dubious.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Wouldn't the Bismarck escape through in this scenario? At least Ark Royal may not be in time and it's possible Hood and Prince of Wales, while not damaged for the latter and not sunk for the former, might not be able to inflict damage on Bismarck. With the otl forces, the Bismarck might even sink two cruisers it if manages to intercept them, so they'll more likely send the battleships chasing Bismarck to fill the gap, especially with the Ultra decoding machine they have and the more likely possibility of Bismarck using the route. While butterflies might prevent the Hood's explosion, the Bismarck might survive as well and might even attack convoys in this scenario, which would be worse for Britain, although they have at least an extra battleship. And, an alternate Bismarck vs. Hood encounter may still get the Hood blowing up, although more dubious.

Er... not so much.
If they take the Faroes gap, they don't run into Hood and PoW because the Hood and PoW are covering the Denmark Strait...

But they DO run into several cruisers, HMS King George V (a fully worked up and ready KGV class BB) and at least one carrier (Victorious).
(I'm not sure who the several cruisers - and DDs - were, but I do know KGV and Vicky were in the I-F gap.)
 
Er... not so much.
If they take the Faroes gap, they don't run into Hood and PoW because the Hood and PoW are covering the Denmark Strait...

But they DO run into several cruisers, HMS King George V (a fully worked up and ready KGV class BB) and at least one carrier (Victorious).
At least the King George V is the saving grace here, even if the battleships guarding Denmark Strait still remain there. But, it is sure the King George V spots the Bismarck first? And, even the King George V damages the Bismarck, they got to sink or cripple it, although possible with destroyer and cruiser torpedoes and even easier to mission kill it. [HMS Victorious was missing part of its airgroup due to its recent commissioning and the skill of its pilots is an even bigger factor, along with luck.]
 
OTL the Bismarck took the Denmark Strait route to break out. This was considered the less likely route by the RN - possibly why the PoW and Hood were there.
What would have happened if the Bismarck had selected the Faroes-Iceland Gap instead? (I believe there were rather more ships there.)
Well, obviously the Hood isn't sunk, but what happens instead?

KGV eats her for Breakfast while the Heavy Cruisers engage PE - no under trained crew and no un-worked up systems on this modern Battleship!

This might be after an Air attack by Victorious and I guess the fleet might instead have 'shadowed' the 2 German ships until more assets arrived but that's out of character for The Royal Navy.

With worked up guns and an experienced crew the KGV is the better ship.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
At least the King George V is the saving grace here, even if the battleships guarding Denmark Strait still remain there. But, it is sure the King George V spots the Bismarck first? And, even the King George V damages the Bismarck, they got to sink or cripple it, although possible with destroyer and cruiser torpedoes and even easier to mission kill it. [HMS Victorious was missing part of its airgroup due to its recent commissioning and the skill of its pilots is an even bigger factor, along with luck.]

With all those cruisers - some of which have RADAR - I think it's likely that the Brits spot Bismarck first. (Indeed, she may well end up shadowed by a RADAR-equipped cruiser as she was OTL.)
The Victorious - I don't know how skilled her air group was. With a RADAR position fix, they could stand off and send in the Swordfish, which might (might, not will) get a hit or two to slow the Bismarck somewhat.
Once that's happened, then the KGV can engage at range and a couple of cruisers can fight the Bismarck's accompanying cruiser.

The gun battle is fairly unambiguous - the KGV is better protected vs. 15" than the Bismarck vs. 14", and the KGV has more guns and a more experienced crew to boot. And...
Looks like Repulse was along as well. Better protected than Hood.

...it's a pity the marker on the first map I found just reads "Home Fleet"...


Aha! Pink list.



The Home Fleet departed Scapa Flow at 2300 with battleship KING GEORGE V, aircraft carrier VICTORIOUS, light cruisers GALATEA, AURORA, KENYA, and HERMIONE, and destroyers ACTIVE, PUNJABI, NESTOR, LANCE, WINDSOR, INGLEFIELD, and INTREPID.

Destroyer LANCE returned to Scapa Flow with boiler defects. The destroyer was able to depart again at 1315/23rd for Skaalefjord, arriving at 0500/24th. She departed at 0700 sailing westward to join the fleet.

Battlecruiser REPULSE was already at sea, putting out from the Clyde at 1600 with destroyers LEGION, SAGUENAY, and ASSINIBOINE. The battlecruiser and destroyers rendezvoused with Tovey off the Butt of Lewis at noon on the 23rd.


So that means that the Home Fleet force contains about ten DDs and four CLs, along with a BB, a BC (one of the good ones) and a CV.
Of course, the Repulse was a bit low on fuel and had to head for home on the 25th, but if the battle develops on the 24th then that's fine.
 
hms repulse

You're forgetting one warship. The battlecruiser H.M.S. Repulse was with the King George V, and Victorious.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
So we've got a more worked up KGV class, with better gunnery.
We've got Repulse instead of Hood - the BC has thicker deck armour, six 15" instead of eight, and is actually three knots faster than the tired Hood.
We've got a CV with torpedoes.
And we've got four light cruisers (with at least 24 6" guns and 24 torpedo tubes between them) and a heck of a lot of DDs - at least potentially.

Seems to be all plus over OTL Denmark Strait.
 
Well, if Ovaron$s writing the secenario, Bismarck sinks the entire home fleet, including several uncompleted ships still on the slips.

In reality, the factors which helped Bismarck win at Denmark Straits evaporate. No weak deck armour, no guns that break down every ten rounds, plus the carriers and cruisers having their say.

Makes one wonder how Göbbels would have spun that.
 
So we've got a more worked up KGV class, with better gunnery.
We've got Repulse instead of Hood - the BC has thicker deck armour, six 15" instead of eight, and is actually three knots faster than the tired Hood.
We've got a CV with torpedoes.
And we've got four light cruisers (with at least 24 6" guns and 24 torpedo tubes between them) and a heck of a lot of DDs - at least potentially.

Seems to be all plus over OTL Denmark Strait.

I don't think I could write that so that Bismarck escapes:D.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Hmm, here's a way it could go... sorry for any mistakes:

23 May
Lutjens decides to take the eastern path around Iceland. His decision is predicated on making it past the RN forces to Saint-Nazaire as soon as possible.
24 May
1120: Aircraft flying search out of Iceland spot two large ships proceeding south-west; the contact is radioed in.
1135: Tovey (Home Fleet) confirms the sighting and launches scout aircraft from Victorious. Leaving the carrier with four DDs escort to follow, he turns towards the contact and deploys his cruisers ahead. Holland is signalled and told to make all speed east.
1420: The shadowing aircraft out of Iceland has to return to base.
1455: After a short interval of no observation, the scouts from Victorious arrive over the Kriegsmarine task force.
1510: Victorious' task force has an altercation with a submarine. This is believed to be evidence of close coordination between surface and submarine arms of the Kriegsmarine; it is in fact simple luck.
1520: Cruiser Galatea sights the German task force.
1525: Prinz Eugen alters course to attack the Galatea. The heavy cruiser begins engaging the Royal Navy ship at long range, and the battle is inconclusive for the next half hour or so. One 8" shell hits Galatea, disabling X turret, and another damages her mainmast; Prinz Eugen takes two 6" shells on the belt, to superficial damage, and one shell lands on her upperworks starting a fire.
1600: HMS Aurora and HMS Kenya arrive. Prinz Eugen opens the range once more, returning to station alongside Bismarck. Her final salvo holes Galatea below the waterline with a non-fuzing shell, causing Galatea to slow for repairs. Galatea takes a course north and west, away from the German ships and towards Iceland.
1610: A second wave of aircraft arrive from Victorious; these are armed with torpedoes. Of the ten Swordfish launched, two are damaged and forced to drop early and one is shot down. Most of the remaining torpedoes miss, but one holes Prinz Eugen near the stern and shock damage renders her right hand shaft inoperative. (This means Prinz Eugen is reduced to her central shaft, and she slows considerably.)
1645: Lutjens elects to order Prinz Eugen back to Germany, and continue along with his flagship alone. This is partly due to the fire burning on the heavy cruiser, which will draw attention at considerable distance; if he can reach the French Atlantic coast, he will have largely succeeded in his mission to break out, while Prinz Eugen manifestly cannot.
1705: HMS King George V opens fire.


The engagement is not particularly complex. KGV leads Repulse, and begins by staying inside her broad immune zone against the weapons of the Bismarck.
Both battleships straddle quickly, the KGV with her third salvo and the Bismarck with her nearly contemporaneous second.
The German BB scores the first hit, a shell hitting the KGV's belt but failing to penetrate. KGV's reply with her seventh salvo scores a hit on the Bismarck's bow, passing through without fuzing, and her eighth strikes the superstructure.
Bismarck does the next damage, hitting A turret on the KGV. This jams the elevating gear on one gun, but the remainder remain operational.
Bismarck is slowly turning to port as the battle continues, cutting inside the British capital ships and aiming to turn away to the south. To this end, Lutjens splits his fire now that Repulse is in range - the battlecruiser is faster than his ship, and must be lamed if he is to escape.
Unfortunately, however, his first hit on Repulse does not do as much damage as could be hoped - unlike her fellow battlecruiser the Hood, Repulse has been regularly refitted and has extremely thick armour over the magazines, and the shell which scores a lucky hit near the magazine fails to penetrate four inches of high-tensile steel.
Shortly after this, Repulse scores with her 15" guns on Bismarck's Y turret, disabling the turret.

Bismarck fights well, but the outcome was never especially in doubt - with sixteen guns to eight, and against better protected ships, Bismarck's only hope was to disable the battlecruiser and escape.
Guns silenced, battered into a wreck, she is sunk by torpedoes at 1839.

The two British capital ships do not escape unscathed.
KGV's battery is significantly damaged by the engagement, being down to five operational guns (though two more are only somewhat incapacitated and function is restored before she makes port), and her loading speed draws criticism towards the end of the engagement. However, only two shells penetrated her belt, one where a previous shell had already damaged it, and no shells successfully plunge into her vitals.
Repulse has taken several hits as well. One of these hits is a plunging shell under the belt, which damaged the machinery - had it been scored earlier in the engagement, Bismarck might have been able to break off and escape. B turret was also disabled by shellfire, and she has lost her mainmast - and her aviation facilities, which result in a nasty fire.

Tovey comes under some criticism for his handling of the battle. Some feel he should have waited until a second air strike went in (or until Holland caught up), or that the first strike should have been directed at the Bismarck. He is also accused of being glory-hungry for sending his flagship in first.
This is all behind closed doors, however - publicly, he is hailed as a hero for having saved thousands of British sailors in the convoy routes (and for sinking the largest battleship yet sunk at sea.)

Goebbels makes much of the successful return of the Prinz Eugen to Norway; however, it rings somewhat hollow as the Bismarck has clearly been lost.

King George V is sent for repair in New York Naval Yards, for maximum propaganda value; Repulse, shorter on fuel, returns home for her repairs.
Once Repulse is out of the yards, Hood gets a much needed refit - it has not escaped notice that the hit Repulse took early in the engagement would have blown Hood to pieces. She is in refit until early 1942.
Prince of Wales finishes her working up and sea trials, is sent east, and is unfortunately lost returning to Singapore after the Battle of Eastern Malay in late 1941. (HMS Renown makes it back to Singapore after the battle, but is dry-docked for months having torpedo damage patched up.)
 
Hello,

Interesting and at least generally plausible.

I've a few nitpicks

Most of the remaining torpedoes miss, but one holes Prinz Eugen
I'm not sure why Prinz Eugen is targeted - the aircrew would have been ordered to get the Bismarck (and any torpedo plane pilot would have preferred to get a shiny BB - all the more so as it's a slightly easier target).
Perhaps misidentification ?

1645: Lutjens elects to order Prinz Eugen back to Germany, and continue along with his flagship alone.
Both ships were to work in tandem. Sending PE back and keeping the penetration attempt is curious with regard to the mission.


The German BB scores the first hit, a shell hitting the KGV's belt but failing
The Kriegsmarine doctrine wanted to open fire first at the enemy with the largest guns.
Here Repulse would be targeted first, even though she had less guns. (
See OTL Denmark strait : Hood could shoot with 4 guns when engaged and PoW (identified by the Germans as KGV) with 6, yet Bismarck *and* PE both initially targeted Hood)

I'm away from my notes, but I wonder whether Repulse had received that much improvement (it sounds more like Renown-style refit to me, and Repulse has received less modernization than her sister)


Hood gets a much needed refit[...]She is in refit until early 1942.
If you want a full Renown-level modernization, it's far too short.
 
That was after Bismarck had been mission-killed in the breakthrough attempt.

Here it's just before the breakthrough.
Perhaps this would lead Lütjens to completely cancel the mission - but it's just assumptions, I'm far from sure of what the actual reaction would/should be.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Well, I did say I wasn't sure... ;)


The torpedo bombers going for the P.E. was indeed misidentification. Since both ships had eight main battery guns, it's I think workable in the heat of the moment.


Lutjens ordered the PE back because it was signalling his location - the fire was marking it - and it wasn't capable of full speed. He basically hoped to break contact and head south as per the original plan, and perhaps that the P.E. would draw off Allied attention. (His plan here always assumed he'd be able to avoid fighting RN heavy units too much, and if he stays with PE he's doomed to a fleet engagement - whereas if he sends her away and continues alone he's basically doing his original plan. He is, after all, faster than the KGVs, if barely... and there's always that hope he can make a RN battlecruiser go Jutland.)


Bismarck couldn't target Repulse because she was behind KGV at that range, basically - KGV was inside her range of Bismarck and vice versa, but Repulse wasn't yet in range of either. As soon as he was in range of R, he directed fire on her - perhaps he should have switched fire.


Hood's refit should indeed take longer! I just pulled a number out of the air for that one.


And the shot which hit Repulse is basically like the OTL one which killed Hood - but Repulse was somewhat better protected than Hood, having had more refit than Hood even if not so much as Renown. Perhaps it could be changed to hitting somewhere a magazine used to be before refit.


(Thanks for the plausibility checks, by the way. I hope I did full justice to the ships in question... my naval warfare understanding ain't all that great.)
 
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The torpedo bombers going for the P.E. was indeed misidentification. Since both ships had eight main battery guns, it's I think workable in the heat of the moment.

OTL Hood started off firing at Prinz Eugen. The silhouettes of the two ships were very similar.
 
I'm away from my notes, but I wonder whether Repulse had received that much improvement (it sounds more like Renown-style refit to me, and Repulse has received less modernization than her sister)


If you want a full Renown-level modernization, it's far too short.

Regarding refits

The 3 year Warspite / Renown style refit was in peacetime - with probably a single shift 5 day week.

During Wartime it would probably be a triple shift on a 6 or even 7 day week

I think they could probably have done it inside of 18 months given that they can build a new one in 3 years!!!

Below - Hood recommissioning after her deep refit in 1943 before heading out for the Far East

hood45t.jpg
 
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Saphroneth

Banned
So, things to change:
Hood is in the shop until 1943 at the earliest.
The shell bursts on Repulse's deck, and the blast doesn't touch off the magazines - though it is a close run thing with a lucky shot.
The mistaken identity of the Swordfish is made more clear.
(possibly) Bismarck shifts fire entirely to Repulse as soon as Repulse is in range. (This would result in KGV being less badly damaged, but Repulse down to one turret by the time the engagement concludes - and probably with shaft damage and an extra belt piercing resulting potentially in engine damage or fuel loss.)
 
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