Earlier Sea Hurricane?

What has to be done to put Sea Hurricane earlier in service then in OTL which was in 1941? I know that British had two seater fighter aircraft on their carriers because of real or imagined navigation issues, but what POD is neccessary to have naval variant of Hurricane on a Carrier before the beginning of WW2?

Recently I read about the British carrier aviation, and while they did had naval versions of Hurricanes and later Spitfires, and excellent Sea Fury aircraft postwar, it all seems somewhat lacking. So, how early is it possible, and what are the consequences?

plenka said:

What has to be done to put Sea Hurricane earlier in service then in OTL which was in 1941? I know that British had two seater fighter aircraft on their carriers because of real or imagined navigation issues, but what POD is neccessary to have naval variant of Hurricane on a Carrier before the beginning of WW2?

Recently I read about the British carrier aviation, and while they did had naval versions of Hurricanes and later Spitfires, and excellent Sea Fury aircraft postwar, it all seems somewhat lacking. So, how early is it possible, and what are the consequences?

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There was a preceived need to have every Hurricane and Spitfire possible in RAF fighter command and once they got hold of them they were Jealously horded.

At the beginning of 1939 Spitfire was still not operational and teething problem's were still being overcome - Hurricane was just about mature.

had 100 or 200 of either type been diverted to the navy what implications would this have for the Battle of Britain?

The other problem was that the British aircraft industry was only just starting to ramp up from relatively small orders of a given airframe throughout the 20s and 30s (often 100-200) to the need to produce 1000s

The Fairey Fulmar came into full squadron service by the beginning of 1940 and its easy for us sitting 70 plus years away to compare it to A6Ms or F4F Wildcats of the IJN and USN but it took another 2 years for those planes to reach operational maturity in their respective navies.

And for 1940 the Fulmar was not a bad carrier fighter plane - over Malta they could 'With a bit of flap down' turn with an Italian CR42 (not many planes could claim this!) - and with 8 Vickers Brownings were as well armed as any single engined fighter plane then flying. Decent range as well.

Now in my opinion the only thing that could see Sea Hurricane in Service earlier is improved earlier Spitfire Production - ie the Castle Bromwich 'Shadow Factory' up and running earlier.

With more of the RAF Squadrons being equipped with Spitfire the RAF/Air Council would be less resistant to providing Hurricane airframes to the Navy - maybe they would even get a folding wing?

This would require a POD where Britain (and France) starts rearmament earlier.

Cryhavoc101 said:

Now in my opinion the only thing that could see Sea Hurricane in Service earlier is improved earlier Spitfire Production - ie the Castle Bromwich 'Shadow Factory' up and running earlier.

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Another reason Lord Nuffield should have been shot as a traitor.

World War II[edit]

The Supermarine Spitfire was a technically advanced aircraft. Though ordered by the Air Ministry in March 1936 by early 1938 no single plane had been made so a vast new factory at Castle Bromwich was ordered by the Air Secretary and Morris, now Lord Nuffield, placed in charge of it. He had claimed he could produce 50 Spitfires a week but by May 1940, the height of the Battle of France, not one Spitfire had been built at Castle Bromwich. That month Lord Beaverbrook was placed in charge of all aircraft production, Lord Nuffield was sacked and the plant handed over to Vickers, Supermarine's parent company.[4]

To be fair part of the problem was the Unions who had been infiltrated and funded by the Communists and were told to disrupt British industry in support of the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact.

At least some 24 Hurricanes were exported pre-war with some sources giving a figure as High as 100 aircraft. Divert these aircraft to the navy pre 1040 and you have a good start for the FAA. The Problem is that until forced to do so in 1940 (battle of Norway) no Navy bloke was convinced that you couls safely operate high speed single seat monoplanes off a carrier Whereas the ordering in 1938 of the larger and heavier Fulmar should have been a fair indicator that a place simular to the Hurricane could be made carrier compatable

Sior said:

Another reason Lord Nuffield should have been shot as a traitor.

World War II[edit]

The Supermarine Spitfire was a technically advanced aircraft. Though ordered by the Air Ministry in March 1936 by early 1938 no single plane had been made so a vast new factory at Castle Bromwich was ordered by the Air Secretary and Morris, now Lord Nuffield, placed in charge of it. He had claimed he could produce 50 Spitfires a week but by May 1940, the height of the Battle of France, not one Spitfire had been built at Castle Bromwich. That month Lord Beaverbrook was placed in charge of all aircraft production, Lord Nuffield was sacked and the plant handed over to Vickers, Supermarine's parent company.[4]

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Didn't Bevin manouver him into offerng his resignation (as a threat) over a telephone call which Bevin immediately accepted and hung up

sonofpegasus said:

At least some 24 Hurricanes were exported pre-war with some sources giving a figure as High as 100 aircraft. Divert these aircraft to the navy pre 1040 and you have a good start for the FAA. The Problem is that until forced to do so in 1940 (battle of Norway) no Navy bloke was convinced that you couls safely operate high speed single seat monoplanes off a carrier Whereas the ordering in 1938 of the larger and heavier Fulmar should have been a fair indicator that a place simular to the Hurricane could be made carrier compatable

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Fulmar was ordered as Fairey could deliver it in a decent time frame (better than no fighter plane) - the navy did want Spitfire (and repeatidly asked for it) but for reasons fair and fowl it was not available to them at the time.

The Royal Navy defiantely wanted Sea Spitfire and started work with Super-Marine/Vickers in Nov 1939 for a folding wing version (vickers apparently already had a folding wing design apparently) - it got Churchilled in March 1940 in favor of all Spitfire/ Hurricanes going to Fighter command and that was the end of any chance of the RN having Seafire any earlier than late 42.

http://www.armouredcarriers.com/fairey-fulmar-development/

http://www.armouredcarriers.com/seafire-development/

As for Hurricanes for the navy - it wasn't until 1941 that sufficent Spitfire production allowed for all of the Home Fighter Squadrons to be equipped with Spitfire - freeing up production / un-needed airframes for the Navy.

So it was Blackburn Skua or Fairey Fulmar or nothing (Sea Gladiator?)

Perhaps its time to roll back the POD a little to 1922 and the aptly named Handley Page HPS-1, a naval monoplane fighter built to a US Navy contract. Handley Page were anxious to validate the benefits of slotted wings in taming monoplane wings. They got the wing right, but the undercarriage failed, and it was cancelled. The US Navy would have to wait for a monoplane fighter.

Cryhavoc101 said:

..... At the beginning of 1939 Spitfire was still not operational.....

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The Spitfire was operational in August 1938.

Just Leo said:

Perhaps its time to roll back the POD a little to 1922 and the aptly named Handley Page HPS-1, a naval monoplane fighter built to a US Navy contract. Handley Page were anxious to validate the benefits of slotted wings in taming monoplane wings. They got the wing right, but the undercarriage failed, and it was cancelled. The US Navy would have to wait for a monoplane fighter.

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That is a rather handsome plane. Handsomely squat even.

tallthinkev said:

The Spitfire was operational in August 1938.

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Spitfire production in July, August and September 1938 was 2 per month. These are not "operational" numbers. Production in October 1938 skyrocketed up to 13.

tallthinkev said:

The Spitfire was operational in August 1938.

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My understanding was that it had a lot of issues that were not fully overcome / ironed out until 1939 regardless of it being in Squadron service or not

OTL During the late 1930s, the Fleet Air Arm was struggling to make up for chronic under-funding since WW1, Depression, etc.
A stronger FAA would need to get their hands on 30 or so Hurricanes " landing-on trials."
ATL might include some Canadian-made Hurricanes diverted for landing-on trials on a modified "Laker." Perhaps a drunken boast by bored RCAF pilots? Though I suspect that Canadian Car and Foundry's production was too late to affect the Battle of Britain.

The greatest struggle would be seconding those Sea Hurricanes to RAF Fighter Command during the height of the Battle of Britain.
Far too easy for the Home Fleet to conceal their precious Sea Hurricanes defending some obscure, far- flung colony.

Cryhavoc101 said:

Didn't Bevin manouver him into offerng his resignation (as a threat) over a telephone call which Bevin immediately accepted and hung up

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Beaverbrook

McKinstry, Leo (2010-10-14). Spitfire Hachette Littlehampton. Kindle Edition.

As Alex Henshaw put it, ‘Beaverbrook was an unpleasant bastard. But he was the right man in the right place at the right time.’ Within three days of taking up his post, he had apprised himself of the disastrous position at Castle Bromwich and was resolved to act. Miles Thomas happened to be in Nuffield’s office at Cowley in Oxford on 17 May when a call came through from Beaverbrook at the Ministry:


They were both better in monologues than dialogues and from the Cowley end of the line it quickly became apparent that Lord Nuffield was vociferously defending his Castle Bromwich organization and making it abundantly clear that in his opinion the Minister of Aircraft Production could either have Spitfires or modifications but he could not have both. The moment of truth had arrived. Sarcastically, certain that he was putting the ace of trumps on the table, Nuffield shouted, ‘Maybe you would like me to give up control of the Spitfire factory.’ In a flash came the reply: ‘Nuffield, that’s very generous of you. I accept!’ There was a click in the earpiece – the line went dead. Inwardly I breathed a sigh of relief. Nuffield’s face was ashen. For a long time he did not say anything.

.

PMN1 said:

Beaverbrook

McKinstry, Leo (2010-10-14). Spitfire Hachette Littlehampton. Kindle Edition.

As Alex Henshaw put it, ‘Beaverbrook was an unpleasant bastard. But he was the right man in the right place at the right time.’ Within three days of taking up his post, he had apprised himself of the disastrous position at Castle Bromwich and was resolved to act. Miles Thomas happened to be in Nuffield’s office at Cowley in Oxford on 17 May when a call came through from Beaverbrook at the Ministry:


They were both better in monologues than dialogues and from the Cowley end of the line it quickly became apparent that Lord Nuffield was vociferously defending his Castle Bromwich organization and making it abundantly clear that in his opinion the Minister of Aircraft Production could either have Spitfires or modifications but he could not have both. The moment of truth had arrived. Sarcastically, certain that he was putting the ace of trumps on the table, Nuffield shouted, ‘Maybe you would like me to give up control of the Spitfire factory.’ In a flash came the reply: ‘Nuffield, that’s very generous of you. I accept!’ There was a click in the earpiece – the line went dead. Inwardly I breathed a sigh of relief. Nuffield’s face was ashen. For a long time he did not say anything.

.

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Beaverbrook - of course

Moment of true Genius

The Sea Gladiator Substitution

The Gloster Gladiator entered service with the RAF in February 1937. About 750 were built for the RAF, FAA and export. Production did not end until April 1940.

Meanwhile the first Merlin powered aircraft to enter service with the RAF was the Fariey Battle in May 1937 and the Hawker Hurricane entered service with the RAF in December 1937.

Furthermore the Air Ministry decided that the Hawker Henley light bomber would be built by Gloster rather than Hawker. 200 of these Merlin powered aircraft were delivered to the RAF which used them for towing targets. The type entered service with No. 1 AACU in November 1938. 122 were on charge in September 1939 (but others might have been delivered and written off).

Gloster also built 2,750 Hurricanes between October 1939 and March 1942.

With hindsight I think it would have been better if Gloster had built another 200 Hurricanes instead of the Henley. I would not necessarily have used them to form extra fighter squadrons or re-equip the fighter squadrons that still had biplanes IOTL. Instead I would use them to expand the Group Pools or export them.

I also think that Gloster could have built more Hurricanes instead of the 581 production Gladiators that were built to Air Ministry contracts. The first 203 would still be built as Gladiators as they were ordered in 1935 (23 in July 1935 to contract 419392/36 and 180 in September 1935 to contract 442476/36). However, the 5th (and final) contract for 300 (No 952950/38) could have been for Hurricanes instead of Gladiators. I don't know when the 3rd and 4th contracts were placed, but I guess they were in 1936, which was late enough for 78 Hurricanes to be ordered instead of the 78 Gladiators ordered IOTL.

IIRC from Norman Friedman the FAA ordered the Sea Gladiator as a stop gap pending the arrival of the Roc/Skua and Fulmar. So if production of the Gladiator had been phased out in 1938 the FAA would buy 98 Sea Hurricanes instead of the 98 Sea Gladiators it acquired ITTL. It was buy a navalised Hurricane or soldier on with the Nimrod and Osprey until the bespoke naval monoplane fighters were ready.

The Gladiator Substitution - Part 2

According to the Putmans book about Gloster aircraft production 1937-40 was as follows:

1937 - 265 aircraft of which:

12 Gauntlets
252 Gladiators (for the Air Ministry and export - 137 Gladiators were exported 1937-38).
1 Gloster F.5/34 prototype

1938 - 169 aircraft (nearly 100 fewer than 1937) of which:

158 Gladiators (for the Air Ministry and export - 137 Gladiators were exported 1937-38).
10 Henleys
1 Gloster F.5/34 prototype

1939 - 524 aircraft of which:

320 Gladiators
171 Henleys
32 Hurricanes
1 Gloster Reaper prototype

1940 - 1,247 aircraft of which:

16 Gladiators
19 Henleys
1,211 Hurricanes
1 Gloster Reaper prototype

The Gladiator Substitution - Part 3

Therefore ITTL it might be able to tweak it as follows:

1937 - 265 aircraft of which:

12 Gauntlets
252 Gladiators (203 to Air Ministry contracts and 49 of the 137 Gladiators that were were exported 1937-38).
1 Gloster F.5/34 prototype

1938 - 169 aircraft (nearly 100 fewer than 1937) of which:

88 Gladiators (the balance of the 137 Gladiators that were were exported 1937-38).
80 Hurricanes (instead of the 10 Henleys and 70 Gladiators built to RAF contracts)
1 Gloster F.5/34 prototype

1939 - 524 aircraft of which:

523 Hurricanes (vice the 320 Gladiators, 171 Henleys and 32 Hurricanes built IOTL)
1 Gloster Reaper prototype

1940 - 1,247 aircraft of which:

1,246 Hurricanes (vice the 16 Gladiators, 19 Henleys and 1,211 Hurricanes built IOTL)
1 Gloster Reaper prototype

A total of 302 Gladiators were exported because in addition to the 165 built 1937-38 there were 137 second-hand aircraft that were exported 1939-42. ITTL they would be a mix of Gladiators and Hurricanes. The former would come from the survivors of the 203 aircraft built for the RAF ITTL.

NOMISYRRUC said:

Therefore ITTL it might be able to tweak it as follows:

1937 - 265 aircraft of which:

12 Gauntlets
252 Gladiators (203 to Air Ministry contracts and 49 of the 137 Gladiators that were were exported 1937-38).
1 Gloster F.5/34 prototype

1938 - 169 aircraft (nearly 100 fewer than 1937) of which:

88 Gladiators (the balance of the 137 Gladiators that were were exported 1937-38).
80 Hurricanes (instead of the 10 Henleys and 70 Gladiators built to RAF contracts)
1 Gloster F.5/34 prototype

1939 - 524 aircraft of which:

523 Hurricanes (vice the 320 Gladiators, 171 Henleys and 32 Hurricanes built IOTL)
1 Gloster Reaper prototype

1940 - 1,247 aircraft of which:

1,246 Hurricanes (vice the 16 Gladiators, 19 Henleys and 1,211 Hurricanes built IOTL)
1 Gloster Reaper prototype

A total of 302 Gladiators were exported because in addition to the 165 built 1937-38 there were 137 second-hand aircraft that were exported 1939-42. ITTL they would be a mix of Gladiators and Hurricanes. The former would come from the survivors of the 203 aircraft built for the RAF ITTL.

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I fully agree - even if the extra Hurricanes were not assigned to the Navy - they would be of more use than the Henlys and Glads

I wonder if a portion of the Fairey Fulmar Production can be switched to licence built 'Folding Wing' Sea Hurricanes - Fairey will probably be resistant to such a move but I am sure that the Air Council could mollify him!

Cryhavoc101 said:

I fully agree - even if the extra Hurricanes were not assigned to the Navy - they would be of more use than the Henlys and Glads

I wonder if a portion of the Fairey Fulmar Production can be switched to licence built 'Folding Wing' Sea Hurricanes - Fairey will probably be resistant to such a move but I am sure that the Air Council could mollify him!

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The Henlys should have been used as designed (light dive bomber) next to the Hurricans in the FAA.



What If Sea Henley

With Hindsight...

NOMISYRRUC said:

With hindsight I think it would have been better

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With hindsight, Hurricanes would have had all-metal wings suitable for fitting suitably modified Hispano cannons, and constant speed propellers, and a frameless Malcolm hood, and a thinner wing not borne from faulty wind tunnel data. All these were more significant than folding wings, except for the FAA. With hindsight, the Hawker Hector wouldn't have been built, nor would the Roc, the Defiant, the Blenheim IF, the Blackburn Botha and the Saro Lerwick. The Battle would never have reached such production volume, and Henleys wouldn't have defective engines, but would have a bomb crutch and forward firing armament. There are multitudes of other things as well. Teddy Petter designed the Lysander with consultation from crew and maintenance men. It didn't seem to help. The Peregrine and Vulture engines, instead of the Griffon was a bit of an oops situation. With hindsight, things were a bit of a mess, and not just for the FAA, which needed the Fulmar's capabilities, and could have used more of its capablities but never mounted a bomb.

With Hindsight.

In know I have said this before but I will say it again, If in late 1936/early 37 when it became apparent that the P5/35 specification aircraft being built by Hakers and Faireys would be orphaned by the cancellation of the operational requirement that spawned them, then there was with hindsight a breif window of opertunity for the Royal Navy to go 'Bags I' and grab both prototypes, By fitting Hurricane outer wing internals including guns but using the Henely metal cladding gives you a proper heavey Fighter Bomber. Using the wing joint (4 pin two spar connection) as your hinge point with a single design you can put folding wings on all three Hawker aircraft (Henley, Hostpur and Huricane). Glosters build the Henely as scheduled, Cunlf-Owen at southampton buils two seat turretless Hotspurs from late 1938 onwards and then when Glosters go over to Hurricanes Cunlif-owens take over the Henely Jigs and build Heneleys, Hotspurs and Hurricanes side by side. At the same time Faireys are asked to hanf a torepedo on their P5/35 as an intrim monoplane torepedo bomber until the Barricuda design is completed. Of course with the torepdo Fulmar being succesful the Barricuda is butterlied away!!