AHC: WW2 as a Doomsday War

There was an old trope in fiction, before it came to pass, that a second World War would be absolutely apocalyptic, would engulf the world in death and destruction, and totally devastate all mankind and all countries, slogging on possibly decades, and ending in something of a second Dark Age (if not the extinction or near extinction of humanity). And mind you that this was just by conventional means, the worst thing being gas (and the innovation of worse and more devastating forms of it). They hadn't even thought of the atomic bomb. "Things to Come" had this, as did the animated short "Peace on Earth", and you could argue "1984" had the tone albeit it was written after the war and the invention of the atomic bomb. And you could argue this later went into post-atomic apocalypse fiction.

The challenge is to make that come to fruition: to make the Second World War a conflict which absolutely devastates the globe, is far more brutal, goes on longer than it did in the OTL, and leaves behind a world in tatters.

Operation Vegetarian being unleashed with Unit 731 working across China while spreading plagues into India would be four horsemen material.

If the Allies and Axis let loose with every batsh*t proposal they had (Churchill seemed especially bloodthirsty in regards to some of those plans), it would be a lot more devastating just from that. Think, for example, if the powers did use gas warfare again. Think if the Japanese right off the bat unleashed a gas attack or biological warfare on the West Coast.

Think if the Japanese right off the bat unleashed a gas attack or biological warfare on the West Coast.

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If that had happened the US would not have stopped at firebombing just a few Japanese cities.

Emperor Norton I said:

There was an old trope in fiction, before it came to pass, that a second World War would be absolutely apocalyptic, would engulf the world in death and destruction, and totally devastate all mankind and all countries, slogging on possibly decades, and ending in something of a second Dark Age (if not the extinction or near extinction of humanity). And mind you that this was just by conventional means, the worst thing being gas (and the innovation of worse and more devastating forms of it). They hadn't even thought of the atomic bomb. "Things to Come" had this, as did the animated short "Peace on Earth", and you could argue "1984" had the tone albeit it was written after the war and the invention of the atomic bomb. And you could argue this later went into post-atomic apocalypse fiction.

The challenge is to make that come to fruition: to make the Second World War a conflict which absolutely devastates the globe, is far more brutal, goes on longer than it did in the OTL, and leaves behind a world in tatters.

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Have the Trinity test have 1000 times the power and radiation. Some scientists took bets that it would ignite the atmosphere. In testing H bombs in the Pacific the US detonated a bomb
code named "Bravo" on the island of Bikini. So that might be your answer.

Well...gas and biological warfare being widespread is a good one. Nukes not really panning out and forcing a land invasion of Japan would rack up probably a good million right there. The WAllies fighting the Soviets after finally knocking out Germany could also do it. I'm not really sure how you get the war to spread into central and southern Africa and South America.

I think CalBear's TL about the Allies nuking the Nazis in the early 50s after Germany knocks out the USSR would meet this criteria.

1933: Franklin Delano Roosevelt shot.
1933-1939: More German Rearmament.
1934-1935: Short US Civil War, military dominance of US.
1936-1939: Communists win Spanish Civil War.
1937-1938: Short Civil War in Britain, Edward remains on throne with help of BUF.
1939: WW2 begins. Little british support for allies.
1940: Germany overruns France and the West. Air forces smashes Britain, holding them at home. Germany begins supplying Irish and anti-Edwardists weapons. Germans and Italians begin offensives in Africa, pushing west and taking Egypt.
1941: South Africa sides with Germany. Axis forces, now allied with many Balkan states move into the Levant, defeating Turkey and Iraq, where anti-colonial forces cheer them on. In the winter, they begin, with Persian help to move into Afghanistan. Pearl Harbor and Japan happen, though Japan does better. Germans do not declare war.
1942: Operation Tannenbaum goes forth. In May, the Germans invade the USSR. However, this leads to Spains declaration of war on the USSRs side. The Axis manage to take Moscow and advance far into Russia, but are seeing Russian counterattacks by the winter. The Axis manage to push into India and Indochina.
1943: Free French forces begin to advance in the Sahara while the Axis are defeated on the Ganges. Germans begin producing Rattes and V2s. The US joins against Germany.
1944: Allies advance, Germans begin using gas in heavy quantities, biological weapons against Britain. South Africa switches sides.
1945: Nukes developed. The US hits much of France, followed by an invasion into Belgium. The Allies are into Germany by the end of the year. Japan is still around. Communists rise up throughout Europe and Axis occupied lands.
1946: Muslim leaders in Axis occupied Mediteranean switch from Axis, and, alongside the US, begin the advance into Germany. Japan begins being nuked. Its leaders refuse to surrender.
1947: Germans develop nukes, begin using them on advancing armies. Germany and Poland become a mess. Japan refuses to surrender. Is blockaded.
1948: Wallies and Communists split, as Communists rise up over famines.
1948-1952: Proxy wars between West and Communists.
1950: Britain seeks union with US.

By the present day, much of the world is made up of totalitarian states. Japan also is just blockaded, and not really dangerous.

Uh...

I think I did this already.

Serious question - in OTL, did ANYONE other than the Brits, via Operation Vegetation, have the capability to significantly escalate?

David Floyd said:

Serious question - in OTL, did ANYONE other than the Brits, via Operation Vegetation, have the capability to significantly escalate?

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All the main players did. Everyone had tens to hundreds of thousands of tons of CW agents ready to go.

A major city struck by a mustard or Lewisite attack would be a circle of hell. Not of any strategic utility, in no small part due to the ease of enemy retaliation, but as far as jacking up suffering among noncombatants it would be exceptionally effective.

Another feature of a second Great War as a war to end civilization is that, rather than an economic boost, it's a burden, and the world powers are slogging it out in Depression till they go bust. I'm not sure how you could do that; even Conservatives tend to hop aboard with War Keynesianism concerning WW2. But maybe the circumstances could be such that all the powers do fight themselves to economic exhaustion.

CalBear said:

Uh...

I think I did this already.

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Was it a war where the world powers fought themselves into total devastation, destruction and economic collapse?

Emperor Norton I said:

Another feature of a second Great War as a war to end civilization is that, rather than an economic boost, it's a burden, and the world powers are slogging it out in Depression till they go bust. I'm not sure how you could do that; even Conservatives tend to hop aboard with War Keynesianism concerning WW2. But maybe the circumstances could be such that all the powers do fight themselves to economic exhaustion.



Was it a war where the world powers fought themselves into total devastation, destruction and economic collapse?

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Well if you look at "The shape of things to come" (the book) the war does cause total economic collapse after a depression that rather than recovering after '33 on simply gets worse.

Wells didn't factor in any economic benefits of the war and had the global economy pretty much wreaked before it even started so things pittered out into collapse in the late '40's.

However "Shape" is actually a history book from the socialist regime that threw over the remaining governments in the 1970's and there are a few points that suggest it's victors history and things might not have been as bad as they seem (or at least the corner was being turned anyway when they seized power). In any case the real finishing stroke is an act of God, a very nasty plague in the '50's that kills half the world preventing any recovery.

In the film the war just never stops, and by '45 the UK and Russia were at the end of their tethers. The UK economy was shot, while Russia was devastated and running out of men. In OTL once the war stopped, austerity, loans and the Marshal plan pulled Britain back into order by the '50's and the USSR plundered its way back to a stable level. If the war went on much longer things might have fallen apart alot more completely, a failed D-day or a much later turning point in Russia could leave the fighting going on into the later 40's. At that point if the nukes hadn't worked, the cattle cake option could have ended up being very attractive...

David Floyd said:

Serious question - in OTL, did ANYONE other than the Brits, via Operation Vegetation, have the capability to significantly escalate?

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The plans for the invasion of Japan aren't that clear, but there were proposals for the use of chemical and biological weapons, with tactical nuclear strikes being proposed at various points.

Delta Force said:

The plans for the invasion of Japan aren't that clear, but there were proposals for the use of chemical and biological weapons, with tactical nuclear strikes being proposed at various points.

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I've also heard that the Americans were seriously thinking of using poison gas in Olympic and Coronet.

Chemical Weapons can only kill so much. Hades came the closest to OP's criteria, methinks. Have everyone go bat guano with biological warfare. Cascade effect from there....

David Floyd said:

Serious question - in OTL, did ANYONE other than the Brits, via Operation Vegetation, have the capability to significantly escalate?

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Before the Nukes, primarily Germany. They had developed Nerve gases such as Tabun and Sarin, hundred of times more potent killers than mustard gasses and kills within minutes. Bombers spraying such gases could kill several square km's per sortie. Hitler was (tricked?) let to be believe the allies had them too and therefore did not use them

Emperor Norton I said:

There was an old trope in fiction, before it came to pass, that a second World War would be absolutely apocalyptic, would engulf the world in death and destruction, and totally devastate all mankind and all countries, slogging on possibly decades, and ending in something of a second Dark Age (if not the extinction or near extinction of humanity). And mind you that this was just by conventional means, the worst thing being gas (and the innovation of worse and more devastating forms of it). They hadn't even thought of the atomic bomb. "Things to Come" had this, as did the animated short "Peace on Earth", and you could argue "1984" had the tone albeit it was written after the war and the invention of the atomic bomb. And you could argue this later went into post-atomic apocalypse fiction.

The challenge is to make that come to fruition: to make the Second World War a conflict which absolutely devastates the globe, is far more brutal, goes on longer than it did in the OTL, and leaves behind a world in tatters.

Click to expand...

"The Literate Führer" is just that. Starts out with the Germans planning to subdue the british from the onset of rearmament and succeeds with some tricks. Hitler can't take the success and wants more. Mass produces Sarin an Tabun and sprays it in Russia and the US using long range high altitude bombers. Take a closer look if you dare.

For Japan, Decisive Darkness fills the criteria.

Massive use of nuclear weapons? Check.

Chemical agents used? Check.

Mass kamikaze and suicide, to the levels of Threads? Check.

Here's my issue: the US needs to be sufficiently devastated as well. There cannot be a hero nation that staved off destruction and devastation and comes in to offer a Marshall Plan after the war.