RAF/Luftwaffe Alliance

hasdrubal barca · Mar 1, 2015

RAF/Luftwaffe Alliance

Slightly ASB scenario based around Britain and Germany allying after the Fall of France: https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=346387

Britain and Germany are actively sharing all aircraft technology with each other.

How could this help RAF with aircraft development?
How could this help Luftwaffe with aircraft development?

hasdrubal barca · Mar 1, 2015

Luftwaffe gets better engines and radar?

Meadow · Mar 1, 2015

I'm no propellerhead, but didn't the Raff take an awfully long time to put cannon on fighters? This might wake them up to it, but then again the thing that made them do it IOTL was facing an enemy with armoured cannon-wielding aircraft. If they were allied to one instead it might not give them the same impetus.

I know you don't want to get into detail, but if we assume these two air forces are fighting France and Russia, what does that mean for design?

hasdrubal barca · Mar 1, 2015

Meadow said:
I'm no propellerhead, but didn't the Raff take an awfully long time to put cannon on fighters? This might wake them up to it, but then again the thing that made them do it IOTL was facing an enemy with armoured cannon-wielding aircraft. If they were allied to one instead it might not give them the same impetus.

I know you don't want to get into detail, but if we assume these two air forces are fighting France and Russia, what does that mean for design?

This should explain the general scenario: https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=346387

Enemies are the Soviet Union and maybe Japan.

Mike D · Mar 1, 2015

Meadow said:
I'm no propellerhead, but didn't the Raff take an awfully long time to put cannon on fighters?

The first cannon armed Spitfires were flying with 19 Sqn (from memory) during the Battle of Britain. There was a problem with the cannon ammunition feed which meant they were unpopular and pilots were desperate to get their old 8x 0.303' planes back.

Saphroneth · Mar 1, 2015

Meadow said:
I'm no propellerhead, but didn't the Raff take an awfully long time to put cannon on fighters? This might wake them up to it, but then again the thing that made them do it IOTL was facing an enemy with armoured cannon-wielding aircraft. If they were allied to one instead it might not give them the same impetus.

I know you don't want to get into detail, but if we assume these two air forces are fighting France and Russia, what does that mean for design?

The RAF was trying to get cannon-armed fighters pre-war. They had trouble with mounting their 20mm Hispanio-Suzia cannons (which they licensed later than they could have), because putting them on the side caused feed problems, and that slowed things down.
So OTL they were working on it but had trouble with getting everything in the right place.

Just Leo · Mar 1, 2015

The RAF and the Luftwaffe did share ideas. The BMW 801 installation on the FW-190A was the basis for the Centaurus installation on the Tempest II. The template for cowling, cooling, exhaust system and fuel injection for improved Bristol engines was drawn in Germany.

Meadow · Mar 1, 2015

Saphroneth said:
The RAF was trying to get cannon-armed fighters pre-war. They had trouble with mounting their 20mm Hispanio-Suzia cannons (which they licensed later than they could have), because putting them on the side caused feed problems, and that slowed things down.
So OTL they were working on it but had trouble with getting everything in the right place.

Thanks. Makes more sense than 'they just didn't see the point' while Germany started Fall Weiss with cannon-armed 109s (right?).

Daewonsu · Mar 1, 2015

Meadow said:
Thanks. Makes more sense than 'they just didn't see the point' while Germany started Fall Weiss with cannon-armed 109s (right?).

There was also the issue of the Brits trying to use non-fighter methods of home defense, from AA rockets to "aerial mines".

MattII · Mar 2, 2015

Meadow said:
Thanks. Makes more sense than 'they just didn't see the point' while Germany started Fall Weiss with cannon-armed 109s (right?).

I don't think the Germans ever put cannons in the 109's wings, which was the issue with the Spit, because when the wings flexed, they jammed the guns.

Riain · Mar 2, 2015

MattII said:
I don't think the Germans ever put cannons in the 109's wings, which was the issue with the Spit, because when the wings flexed, they jammed the guns.

The Bf109E had cannon in the wings, the MGs were in the cowl above the engine, the Bf109F had the cannon firing through the propeller boss.

MattII · Mar 2, 2015

They completely redesigned the wings for the E models though (albeit not on account of the guns), whereas the British were trying to retrofit cannons into MG spaces.

hipper · Mar 2, 2015

Daewonsu said:
There was also the issue of the Brits trying to use non-fighter methods of home defense, from AA rockets to "aerial mines".

The Arial mines ie parachute and cable were actually quite effective

Deleted member 1487 · Mar 2, 2015

hipper said:
The Arial mines ie parachute and cable were actually quite effective

That is exactly the opposite of everything I've read about them.

Saphroneth · Mar 2, 2015

wiking said:
That is exactly the opposite of everything I've read about them.

Remember there's two categories of effectiveness - shooting aircraft down, and restricting their options. If they made low level flight untenable, then that's effective - without shooting down anyone, which means another analysis could give the impression it's not effective due to not shooting anyone down.

Not saying that's the case, but it's how you could get two contradictory impressions from the same data.

Just Leo · Mar 2, 2015

When something is tried and then is halted and the reason given is that it is ineffective, it's probably ineffective.

Cryhavoc101 · Mar 2, 2015

wiking said:
That is exactly the opposite of everything I've read about them.

IIRC this is a story where Churchill was present when the system was tested on one of the KGV BBs and the Wind blew the 'Mines' onto the ship.

Despite one of his chums inventing the system it was soon ditched!

RAF/Luftwaffe Alliance

Deleted member 1487