Sympathy for the devil.

lounge60 · Jul 30, 2015

We know that in 30s (also at the end of the decade,when the war was close) in United Kingdom and in United States,were many members of establishment that looked with sympathy at Hitler and Mussolini.
Which could have been the most pro-nazi Germany (and fascist Italy) government conceivable in UK and USA in late 30s?
And of which politicians (Prime Minister,President,ecc) could have been composed?

GlobalHumanism · Jul 30, 2015

lounge60 said:
We know that in 30s (also at the end of the decade,when the war was close) in United Kingdom and in United States,were many members of establishment that looked with sympathy at Hitler and Mussolini.
Which could have been the most pro-nazi Germany (and fascist Italy) government conceivable in UK and USA in late 30s?
And of which politicians (Prime Minister,President,ecc) could have been composed?

The two figures that come to mind are Charles Limberg as an American POTUS potential and of course Oswald Mosely, the eventual leader of the Blackshirts with an honorable mention to Prince Edward

all, in a position of power and/or influence, would arguably have openly supported or at least tolerated the Nazi's enough to avoid war.

Interestingly enough though, if say Oswald was able to being PM during his stint with the Labor Party, would he as an ardent Anglophile actually be MORE at odds with Hitler's belligerence then even Churchill was.

MattII · Jul 30, 2015

You mean Charles Lindbergh right, the aviator? Or is Charles Limberg a different person?

Sir Prizing · Jul 31, 2015

MattII said:
You mean Charles Lindbergh right, the aviator? Or is Charles Limberg a different person?

By the way, how likely is it that Charles Lindbergh could actually have been elected? I know he has been tossed about as a possible dictator/antisemitic/Nazi-sympathizer President, but could he have really been elected?
I'm just curious because I don't really know much about it at all.

MattII · Jul 31, 2015

Difficult, you'd need to have Roosevelt screw up monumentally in his second term.

Catsmate · Jul 31, 2015

lounge60 said:
We know that in 30s (also at the end of the decade,when the war was close) in United Kingdom and in United States,were many members of establishment that looked with sympathy at Hitler and Mussolini.
Which could have been the most pro-nazi Germany (and fascist Italy) government conceivable in UK and USA in late 30s?
And of which politicians (Prime Minister,President,ecc) could have been composed?

I recommend you look at British Fascist movements up to 1940
by Kim Newman and Eugene Byrne. It's part of the background for their, still unpublished, book series The Matter of Britain.
It's a good, brief, summary.

Hope this helps.

GlobalHumanism · Jul 31, 2015

MattII said:
You mean Charles Lindbergh right, the aviator? Or is Charles Limberg a different person?

Lindbergh. Auto correct is a bitch.

Dathi THorfinnsson · Jul 31, 2015

MattII said:
You mean Charles Lindbergh right, the aviator? Or is Charles Limberg a different person?

Charles Limberg becomes known as the Big Cheese.

wietze · Jul 31, 2015

How about Disney or henry ford?

GlobalHumanism · Jul 31, 2015

Dathi THorfinnsson said:
Charles Limberg becomes known as the Big Cheese.

I think that's what my autocorrect thought I was trying to spell

New Cleo Genesis · Jul 31, 2015

wietze said:
How about Disney or henry ford?

"The guy who made Snow White? You must be kidding, that man has no qualifications to be the President!" - likely answer from an average American on the matter

Ford, on the other, seems possible, albeit barely.

Octosteel · Jul 31, 2015

New Cleo Genesis said:
"The guy who made Snow White? You must be kidding, that man has no qualifications to be the President!" - likely answer from an average American on the matter

Ford, on the other, seems possible, albeit barely.

Ford was practically senile at that point. And I highly doubt Lindbergh's status to get elected. Celebrity status can get you a lot but not the White House. Maybe he could run for Governor or Senate off his celebrity status, but he never showed any interest in doing that historically.

lounge60 · Jul 31, 2015

wietze said:
How about Disney or henry ford?

Disney was not a nazi,only a conservative man of his time.
Ford was not too much old?
About Lindberg,Philip Roth,author of "Plot aganist America" said that

IN December of 2000, I was reading the bound proofs of Arthur Schlesinger's autobiography and found myself especially interested in his description of the events of the late 1930's and early 1940's..... I came upon a sentence in which Schlesinger notes that there were some Republican isolationists who wanted to run Lindbergh for president in 1940. That's all there was, that one sentence with its reference to Lindbergh and to a fact about him I'd not known. It made me think, ''What if they had?'' and I wrote the question in the margin. Between writing down that question and the fully evolved book there were three years of work, but that's how the idea came to me.

About UK,Edward VIII that remains on the throne is a good start (maybe he never meet Mrs Simpson).
But i think that Mosley as PM is too bit extreme.
Was some conservative personality pro-agreegment with Hitler
more presentable?

Orville_third · Aug 1, 2015

Would J.F.C. Fuller make a good choice for a fascist leader?

Brady Kj · Aug 1, 2015

Octosteel said:
Ford was practically senile at that point. And I highly doubt Lindbergh's status to get elected. Celebrity status can get you a lot but not the White House. Maybe he could run for Governor or Senate off his celebrity status, but he never showed any interest in doing that historically.

And we shouldn't pooh pooh their ability to get into the senate. If Lindbergh and Disney got into the Senate, they'd be very useful for the purpose. The United States senate is a very powerful thing, and probably necessary for a pro-Fascist US.

I suspect it's much easier to get a pro-Fascist UK, partly because of Edward and partly because of how the pro-Fascists only have to take over the House of Commons, whereas in the US, it's only easy if they take over two houses, and the presidency.

However, I suspect it's very easy to get an isolationist US, partly because of the obvious distance from Europe, and partly because of the same government structure that makes it hard for the pro-Fascists to run the whole thing.

The Uchronian · Aug 1, 2015

lounge60 said:
Disney was not a nazi,only a conservative man of his time.
Ford was not too much old?
About Lindberg,Philip Roth,author of "Plot aganist America" said that

About UK,Edward VIII that remains on the throne is a good start (maybe he never meet Mrs Simpson).
But i think that Mosley as PM is too bit extreme.
Was some conservative personality pro-agreegment with Hitler
more presentable?

True, true. A hardline anti-Communist Disney may have been, but an out-and-out fascist, he wasn't. The same was even true for Henry Ford(although rather more paranoid about Communism than Disney).

Brady Kj · Aug 1, 2015

Did the US have any politicians who were known Nazi sympathizers?

lounge60 · Aug 2, 2015

Brady Kj said:
Did the US have any politicians who were known Nazi sympathizers?

You mean a real nazi supporter in US Congress?
I think no.

TinyTartar · Aug 2, 2015

I'd doubt it. The Democrats took their lead from FDR, who hated Fascism, and the Republicans at this point were still affected by the pre New Deal sentiment against statism and governmental intervention, so they'd likely have no use for fascism or any desire for it either.

The movement was inherently against democratic principles and capitalist doctrine.

The only people in the US who really had any sympathy for the movements in Italy and Germany were people actually from Italy and Germany (Hitler actually was surprisingly popular with non Jewish Expats).

Orville_third · Aug 2, 2015

Brady Kj said:
Did the US have any politicians who were known Nazi sympathizers?

Not politicians, but some in business. Graeme K. Howard of GM was one.