Helicopter Gunships, 1945

Tallil2long

By late 1944, the Germans had functional helicopters (Flettner FL-282 Kolibri, Foch-Angelis FA-223 Drache), a potential primitive ATGW (Ruhrstahl X-4/7), an unguided HE rocket (R4M), lightweight auto-cannon (MG 151/20, MK 108) and a crude but functional infrared sight (FG 1250).

In other words, all the basic bits that go to make up helicopter gunships, if only in primitive form.

So. Let's assume the developmental and production arcs of these bits all came together in Jan 1945, with the fielding of a couple experimental helicopter gunship squadrons.

Assume at least one (1) organized battlefield commitment of these aircraft before they inevitably were shot down, abandoned for lack of fuel and spare parts, or had their ground components overrun in the German collapse.

Discuss best possible design. Evaluate potential effectiveness. Where might the Germans most profitably employ them? What would be the post-war effects?
 

Deleted member 1487

Tallil2long said:
By late 1944, the Germans had functional helicopters (Flettner FL-282 Kolibri, Foch-Angelis FA-223 Drache), a potential primitive ATGW (Ruhrstahl X-4/7), an unguided HE rocket (R4M), lightweight auto-cannon (MG 151/20, MK 108) and a crude but functional infrared sight (FG 1250).

In other words, all the basic bits that go to make up helicopter gunships, if only in primitive form.

So. Let's assume the developmental and production arcs of these bits all came together in Jan 1945, with the fielding of a couple experimental helicopter gunship squadrons.

Assume at least one (1) organized battlefield commitment of these aircraft before they inevitably were shot down, abandoned for lack of fuel and spare parts, or had their ground components overrun in the German collapse.

Discuss best possible design. Evaluate potential effectiveness. Where might the Germans most profitably employ them? What would be the post-war effects?
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The problem is that their helicopter production was bombed out in 1943-44 repeatedly, so they couldn't do any such thing. 1945 is way too late to field anything like this, while 1942-44 is way too early technologically. I would argue even with everything working economically in 1945 really before the 1950s is too early.
 

zoomar

Also, unless I am wrong both the Fa 223 and Fl 282 were verly lightly constructed and lacked any armor to protect the pilot or crew. Such aircraft would be completely unsuited to the OTL "helicopter gunship" role in contested combat environments.

I suspect that, had the production and deployment of these helicopters not been crippled by allied bombing raids, they would most likely have been optimized for the reconnaissance/transport roles initially proposed, with the a development of the Fa 223 perhaps considered for an airmobile infantry role to suppliment/replace gliders in airborne assaults. As "gunships" they might have proved useful in anti-partisan sorties in the Balkans and USSR, but that's probably about it.
 

Tallil2long

wiking said:
The problem is that their helicopter production was bombed out in 1943-44 repeatedly, so they couldn't do any such thing. 1945 is way too late to field anything like this, while 1942-44 is way too early technologically. I would argue even with everything working economically in 1945 really before the 1950s is too early.
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Thanks, that's why I said:

"Let's assume the developmental and production arcs of these bits all came together in Jan 1945, with the fielding of a couple experimental helicopter gunship squadrons."

But if you don't want to speculate, that's fine, too.
 

kung Zog

Tallil2long said:
Thanks, that's why I said:

"Let's assume the developmental and production arcs of these bits all came together in Jan 1945, with the fielding of a couple experimental helicopter gunship squadrons."

But if you don't want to speculate, that's fine, too.
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they would be blastered into pieces. January 1945 isn't a good time for Germany.
 

Tallil2long

zoomar said:
Also, unless I am wrong both the Fa 223 and Fl 282 were verly lightly constructed and lacked any armor to protect the pilot or crew. Such aircraft would be completely unsuited to the OTL "helicopter gunship" role in contested combat environments.

I suspect that, had the production and deployment of these helicopters not been crippled by allied bombing raids, they would most likely have been optimized for the reconnaissance/transport roles initially proposed, with the a development of the Fa 223 perhaps considered for an airmobile infantry role to suppliment/replace gliders in airborne assaults. As "gunships" they might have proved useful in anti-partisan sorties in the Balkans and USSR, but that's probably about it.
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So, you don't think the Germans would even try to use it in an anti-tank role? Fair enough.
In the anti-partisan role, what armament would you propose?
 

Just Leo

The Fa-223 was chosen for the raid to rescue Mussolini. It might have become famous. It didn't. It broke.
 

Tallil2long

kung Zog said:
they would be blastered into pieces. January 1945 isn't a good time for Germany.
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You could say that about any German equipment in 1945. Yet some bits survived long enough to establish an operational record from which strengths and weaknesses could be evaluated.
 

Tallil2long

Just Leo said:
The Fa-223 was chosen for the raid to rescue Mussolini. It might have become famous. It didn't. It broke.
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Yeah, it looked like an engineer's nightmare; i only included it because it had greater potentiallifting capacity.

What about the Kolibiri?
 

Ian Hathaway

Tallil2long said:
So, you don't think the Germans would even try to use it in an anti-tank role? Fair enough.
In the anti-partisan role, what armament would you propose?
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Only looking at the Fl 282 it was first developed as a ship borne recon and gunnery spotter. Because it was naval aviation it took a backseat which was why it didn't really go any further, that and the disruption of the assembly lines. It was planned to build 1000 in 1943 which didn't happen obviously because the production facilities were busy doing other more "worthwhile" things. You would probably need to get it into the armies hands somehow for this to go any further.

Personally I don't see this in the form of squadrons of these things flying around attacking ground targets in the open. I see this more as a weapon that can be used for ambush in hilly, forested or built up urban areas ... places where it can pop up, take a few shots then disappear again. In that instance it won't come into contact with enemy aircraft and it won't need the kind of armour people are talking about it won't need a great range or turn of speed it will just be there in the "shoot and scoot" role. It was designed for two men so if you get rid of the second man you may have a 100kg payload to play with, not huge, but worth having.
 

kung Zog

Tallil2long said:
You could say that about any German equipment in 1945. Yet some bits survived long enough to establish an operational record from which strengths and weaknesses could be evaluated.
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Indeed you can, which is somewhat of the point.

Well I guess eastern front is must sensible as the Soviet dominance in the air was not as extreme as the Allied on the western front. As far as I know the helicopters in use by Germany were on the eastfront, mainly for artillery spotting.
 

zoomar

Tallil2long said:
So, you don't think the Germans would even try to use it in an anti-tank role? Fair enough.
In the anti-partisan role, what armament would you propose?
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Probably a similar loadout as carried by light fixed wing observation aircraft impressed into this duty. A couple of hand-held MGs, maybe a fixed 20mm cannon, and a few anti-personnel light bombs. If you wanted to get more sinister, how about gas dispensers?

I would also see the helicopters operating mostly at night because early helicopters operating low and slow could easily be engaged by infantry weapons. Maybe find a way to accelerate the introduction of infrared sights and you might have something new and dangerous for Mr Tito to worry about.
 

Michele

Tallil2long said:
So, you don't think the Germans would even try to use it in an anti-tank role? Fair enough.
In the anti-partisan role, what armament would you propose?
Click to expand...

A radio and a binocular for the radio operator/observer. And an artillery battery nearby. Anything else is a very elaborate waste of cutting-edge technology.
 

Michele

zoomar said:
I would also see the helicopters operating mostly at night because early helicopters operating low and slow could easily be engaged by infantry weapons. Maybe find a way to accelerate the introduction of infrared sights and you might have something new and dangerous for Mr Tito to worry about.
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IR vision was available, and precisely to the Germans, by early 1945.

However that was active IR; an IR beam was projected by an active projector, illuminating a target to the right type of sensor. It did not pick up heat sources.

You can mount the vehicular version, and then I doubt the helicopter will be able to lift the ammunition to fire with it; and its range would be 600 meters. Or you can mount the small-arms version, which only weighed some 20 kilos, but I doubt the range would be more than 150 meters.

This means flying with a rotary-wing aircraft of the first generation either pretty low or really nap-of-the-earth, with your only vision being what you can locate with a pretty narrow beam of light.

I think this is nearly as promising, as to accident rates, as the Me 163. Interesting and spectacular, I won't deny that.
 

zoomar

Michele said:
IR vision was available, and precisely to the Germans, by early 1945.

However that was active IR; an IR beam was projected by an active projector, illuminating a target to the right type of sensor. It did not pick up heat sources.

You can mount the vehicular version, and then I doubt the helicopter will be able to lift the ammunition to fire with it; and its range would be 600 meters. Or you can mount the small-arms version, which only weighed some 20 kilos, but I doubt the range would be more than 150 meters.

This means flying with a rotary-wing aircraft of the first generation either pretty low or really nap-of-the-earth, with your only vision being what you can locate with a pretty narrow beam of light.

I think this is nearly as promising, as to accident rates, as the Me 163. Interesting and spectacular, I won't deny that.
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Well, he asked for a suggestion and that's the best I could come up with. I agree with you - if either the Fa 223 or Fl 282 were available in quantity by 1943-44, their only real use would be for what they were designed (unarmed reconnaissance, light duty transports, and army cooperation). And to be honest, in the Fi 156 Storch Germany had an outstanding STOL that could pretty much do anything a helicopter could and far more reliably. Ask Mussolini.
 

Tallil2long

Well, obviously I am not very familiar with early helicopters, so I defer to your collective judgement on the impracticality. But I figured:

A) if somebody thought about putting the bits together, the Germans would likely be interested in an anti-tank platform with unique capabilities. And...

B) the Germans fell for some extremely impractical projects historically (Bachem BA-349, anyone? Maus, perhaps?), so why not?

Just wondered if it were tried, what potential might the post-war nations see in it.
 

kung Zog

Tallil2long said:
Well, obviously I am not very familiar with early helicopters, so I defer to your collective judgement on the impracticality. But I figured:

A) if somebody thought about putting the bits together, the Germans would likely be interested in an anti-tank platform with unique capabilities. And...

B) the Germans fell for some extremely impractical projects historically (Bachem BA-349, anyone? Maus, perhaps?), so why not?

Just wondered if it were tried, what potential might the post-war nations see in it.
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I guess a point could be made for earlier close air support from helicopters active in the Korea war but I wonder...
 

TxCoatl1970

Helo gunships sound cool b/c they weren't too far from development maybe a decade off.

However, you gotta keep in mind engines went through several development cycles so they'd have the lift and speed to be useful, weapons got smaller and more effective against tanks AND personnel, and by the 1970's armored heicopters weren't so far off the mark.

The Fieseler helos were strictly FO birds and vulnerable to rifle fire.

Notice NONE of those developments were even Napkinwaffe, much less in the R&D pipeline in 1945 for anyone Allied or Axis.
 

pdf27

The real question is what exactly a helicopter could do that a (far cheaper) Storch could not? Hovering is really only a party trick for anything but using very tiny airfields (such as on ships), and ATGMs are a long way away still. The Storch has the same payload, can operate from just about any field, and is already in service.
 

Tallil2long

pdf27 said:
The real question is what exactly a helicopter could do that a (far cheaper) Storch could not? Hovering is really only a party trick for anything but using very tiny airfields (such as on ships), and ATGMs are a long way away still.
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ATGW were not a long way away.

Historically, the Germans had small quantities (test models, actually) of X-4 anti-air and X-7 AT guided missiles in 1945. If these had been given priority a few months earlier, had fewer rocket motors been lost in bombing raids, they could have been fielding them in tiny quantities.

Google Ruhrstahl X-7 or Ruhrstahl X-4 for details.

Of course, they wouldn't have approached the efficiency of later ATGW types, but they existed.
 
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