Prussia Territorial gains Seven year war

In OTL Prussia performance in the Seven Year was marvellous to say the least managing to keep away the Armies of Austria, Sweden and Russia. However after all that they didn't make any gains.

So what POD would get Prussia some substantial gains in Europe and would this help to make Prussia became a great power even faster then OTL.
 
If Prussia is going to be that stellar, I'd say they'd pull the same trick than during the Austrian Succession War : grabbing what they want (there, Saxony) and calling it a day, letting other powers fight each other.
 
Have them not have to fight enemies on three fronts.

The less enemies there are, the more power they can concentrate on who's left over, and thus more likely to come out with a decisive victory.
 
In OTL Prussia performance in the Seven Year was marvellous to say the least managing to keep away the Armies of Austria, Sweden and Russia. However after all that they didn't make any gains.

So what POD would get Prussia some substantial gains in Europe and would this help to make Prussia became a great power even faster then OTL.

Prussia did very well, but let us not forget there were times when they were saved by miracles that almost seem ASB. The first moment occurred when Russia and Austria failed to deliver a final knock out after Kunersdorf, when things were looking very bad for the Prussians. This allowed them to hold on for a bit longer.

By late 1761, the situation was very bleak for Prussia. The Russians had occupied most of East Prussia and the Austrians were in control of Mecklenburg, Saxony and Thuringia, and they had lost Kolberg. With most of the Prussian army dead, the British pulled their funding (on which Prussia had relied). The second ASB moment arrived in January when Empress Elizabeth of Russia died and her nephew Peter III negotiated a peace with Prussia and withdrew his forces from Russian territory. Keep in mind the Russians controlled Berlin by this point.

Peter III was able to mediate a truce with Sweden, allowing Frederick II to make a last offensive to regain Silesia. With what little that remained of his army (around 22,000 troops) they inflicted a defeat on the war weary Austrians in October. This led to the final peace negotiations.

The fact that in the end Prussia was able to end keep all of the territory it had started the war with was nothing short of miraculous. They began peace negotiations with Austria in November 1762. Keep in mind that neither the British nor the French wanted the balance of power to be upset in Europe. If Prussia had attempted to keep Saxony, this could have led Catherine II of Russia who had overthrown her husband Peter III to intervene.
 
Prussia did very well, but let us not forget there were times when they were saved by miracles that almost seem ASB. The first moment occurred when Russia and Austria failed to deliver a final knock out after Kunersdorf, when things were looking very bad for the Prussians. This allowed them to hold on for a bit longer.

By late 1761, the situation was very bleak for Prussia. The Russians had occupied most of East Prussia and the Austrians were in control of Mecklenburg, Saxony and Thuringia, and they had lost Kolberg. With most of the Prussian army dead, the British pulled their funding (on which Prussia had relied). The second ASB moment arrived in January when Empress Elizabeth of Russia died and her nephew Peter III negotiated a peace with Prussia and withdrew his forces from Russian territory. Keep in mind the Russians controlled Berlin by this point.

Peter III was able to mediate a truce with Sweden, allowing Frederick II to make a last offensive to regain Silesia. With what little that remained of his army (around 22,000 troops) they inflicted a defeat on the war weary Austrians in October. This led to the final peace negotiations.

The fact that in the end Prussia was able to end keep all of the territory it had started the war with was nothing short of miraculous. They began peace negotiations with Austria in November 1762. Keep in mind that neither the British nor the French wanted the balance of power to be upset in Europe. If Prussia had attempted to keep Saxony, this could have led Catherine II of Russia who had overthrown her husband Peter III to intervene.

I know right a anti prussian Russian Empress completely dedicated to the crushing of Prussia gets replaced by a prusophilic progressive Emperor
 
I know right a anti prussian Russian Empress completely dedicated to the crushing of Prussia gets replaced by a prusophilic progressive Emperor

It was a miracle that some in the Nazi hierarchy believe would be replicated in April 12, 1945 when Roosevelt died. There were those who believed that the USA would withdraw form the war, allowing Germany to achieve a victory.
 
Prussia did very well, but let us not forget there were times when they were saved by miracles that almost seem ASB. The first moment occurred when Russia and Austria failed to deliver a final knock out after Kunersdorf, when things were looking very bad for the Prussians. This allowed them to hold on for a bit longer.

By late 1761, the situation was very bleak for Prussia. The Russians had occupied most of East Prussia and the Austrians were in control of Mecklenburg, Saxony and Thuringia, and they had lost Kolberg. With most of the Prussian army dead, the British pulled their funding (on which Prussia had relied). The second ASB moment arrived in January when Empress Elizabeth of Russia died and her nephew Peter III negotiated a peace with Prussia and withdrew his forces from Russian territory. Keep in mind the Russians controlled Berlin by this point.

Peter III was able to mediate a truce with Sweden, allowing Frederick II to make a last offensive to regain Silesia. With what little that remained of his army (around 22,000 troops) they inflicted a defeat on the war weary Austrians in October. This led to the final peace negotiations.

The fact that in the end Prussia was able to end keep all of the territory it had started the war with was nothing short of miraculous. They began peace negotiations with Austria in November 1762. Keep in mind that neither the British nor the French wanted the balance of power to be upset in Europe. If Prussia had attempted to keep Saxony, this could have led Catherine II of Russia who had overthrown her husband Peter III to intervene.

Bah, Brandenburg just had its Lucky Nation trait trigger a great event. ;)
 
Bah, Brandenburg just had its Lucky Nation trait trigger a great event. ;)

Been playing a bit too much EU4/V2 perhaps?

I don't mind the idea of Prussia doing better than IOTL, but as people have said, they already did pretty well---spectacularly so, considering the number of variables involved.
 
Been playing a bit too much EU4/V2 perhaps?

I don't mind the idea of Prussia doing better than IOTL, but as people have said, they already did pretty well---spectacularly so, considering the number of variables involved.


On a more serious note, Prussia already did very well OTL, and the fact that it did end up on the winning side of most of the 18th century's wars really helped.

As has been said, if Prussia had more leverage after the Seven Years' War Saxony would have been its asking price. Perhaps the Wettins are compensated by getting them Poland for good.
 
On a more serious note, Prussia already did very well OTL, and the fact that it did end up on the winning side of most of the 18th century's wars really helped.

As has been said, if Prussia had more leverage after the Seven Years' War Saxony would have been its asking price. Perhaps the Wettins are compensated by getting them Poland for good.

Other options for Prussia could be the remainder of Vorpommern, which was still Swedish at the time, and parts of Poland such as Kulmerland.

And there's always the possibility of a complete land swap: Prussia gaining something nearby with the prince of that land being compensated by something elsewhere. Kind of what happened with Tuscany or Lorraine or what the Wittelsbachs and Habsburgs tried by exchanging Bavaria.
 
It was a miracle that some in the Nazi hierarchy believe would be replicated in April 12, 1945 when Roosevelt died. There were those who believed that the USA would withdraw form the war, allowing Germany to achieve a victory.

And even if the US had completely withdrawn from the war, it would still have been a lost cause for Nazi Germany by that point.
 
Well, can you mess with the earlier years of the war to have the Prussians do better?

A couple ideas - Empress Elizabeth dies in 1759 or 1760 - Prussia never gets beaten down as much. Not sure what Prussia can get foritself, but it can do better.

Or, no diplomatic revolution in Europe- Prussia is allied with France. It still has to deal with Austria, and probably Russia, both of which get British subsidies, but it does not have a serious third land front in the west with France as it's ally (its just got a few Hanoverians and Hessians to deal with to the west). It probably has Bavaria as an ally too.
 
Logical territorial gains for Prussia (if facing same coalition of enemies 7 allied with Britain) would be northern Saxony, all of Saxony, or possibly a land bridge between Prussia and Pomerania. Conquering and keeping Bohemia without facing an overwhelming opposition coalition is a bit too wanktastical to believe.

If Prussia is allied with France and succeeds in gaining territory, territorial could be similar to those above, plus some pieces of Hanover or Hesse.
 
Oh man, one of my favorite topics. Are we including the first and second silesian wars in this?

A faster advance in the first silesian war, and a bit more confident action would have netted Prussia all of Silsiea, instead of letting Austria keeping their rump Austrian Silesia.

That would have formed a good jumping off point for the Seven years war, as well as a better defensive line.

If we are sticking to the Seven Years War itself, a solid victory at the Battle of Prague would do wonders for changing the early course of the war.

If Winterfeldt's assault upon the Austrian right flank on Sterboholy had carried the day in their first attack, or if either he had been there a bit sooner or the Austrian counter attack a bit later in developing, the whole battle would have developed differently. It would have been the Austrian infantry thrown back in confusion, right as the Prussian horse was engaging and driving the Austrian horse from the field. With both the horse and foot on the right flank victorious, the Prussian horse would not have had to fall back due to taking flanking fire from Sterbholy.

The Prussian horse would have had a free shot at the artillery that had been playing havoc on the Prussian advance all morning.

With the right flank broken earlier and at less cost, the Prussians would have had the time and men to roll up the entire Austrian line, and the cavalry to seal the deal and run down the stragglers. Had this happened, much of the army would have been defeated in the field, instead of allowed to fall back into Prague itself.

If Prince Moritz had showed up on time leading the right column of Keith's corps, with a few extra pontoon boats to cross the Moldau and block the retreating Austrian right wing, they would have netted nearly 16,000 prisoners, who would not have been able to link up with Daun's force.

That alone would have deprived Daun of nearly 16,000 troops. Which would have put him nearly at parity with Bevern's corp, assigned to observe him as he fell back from Prague. Maybe Bevern chances an engagement? If so, it would have been a very good opportunity for him. Crushing Daun before he can rally and mass his force means no Battle of Kolin.

With only 20,000 troops to start with, Daun would have taken the field a month later with only 44,000, and not the nearly 60,000 he was able to mass when he moved to relieve Prague. By the time he arrives at Prague, he probably has only around 40,000. That has big implications for the Battle of Kolin, if it is even fought.

This is all assuming Prague is even standing at the time and there is something to relieve.

With Prague captured and the Austrians crushed once or twice in a little more than month, Frederick is free to seek money and provisions from all of Bohemia while massing his forces against his other foes. The Austrians would have not been able to take the field again in 1757. This would have given Frederick the time and space he needed against the other powers.

I'm sure the war would have dragged on, but it would have gone significantly better with Frederick playing wack-a-mole with a bigger hammer. I'm sure the Austrians would have taken the field in 1758, but fighting the war in Bohemia means they aren't fighting in Silesia or Saxony, protecting Prussia's sources of supply and manpower.

If Prussia wins big enough to force Austria out of the war, even for a just a year or so, then all bets are off.

Are there any Timelines about a more successful Prussia in the Seven Year war? Anyway that sounds really good.
 
Sadly no, I'm about the only person on this forum who specializes in the War of Polish Succession, Austrian Succession, or Prussian part of the Seven Years war. I'd write one, but I doubt anyone would read it.

I've started threads on the Polish and Austrian succession wars in the past, but to no interest.

I prefer timelines dealing with earlier parts of that regions history (like mine! check it out!).

No, really, the dynastic politics of the 15th and 16th century were way more fun (and less dominated by icky sticky Enlightenment social issues)
 
Which I suppose proves my point? Not mainly people interested in 1600-1750 central european stuff. Far more interest in ARW or Napoleon and later, and a fair bit of interest out there in 16th century timeline, mainly focused on france and england.

Well if it matters I would read it. If it is well written a lot of other people would probably read it and provoke more interest in the area. But hey no pressure mate.
 
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