What happens if China keeps Nanyue (northern Vietnam)?

china-728px-Nam-Viet_200bc.jpg


Nanyue was one of the breakaway post-Qin kingdoms. It was furthest south, located in northern Vietnam. Here's some of my prior threads asking about the time period when it was a vassal to the Han:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=216496
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=266900

So what happens if Nanyue is brought into consistent Chinese control, and over the centuries and dynasties, is slowly sinicized and becomes as Chinese as, say, Fujian, or Yunnan?

How does this affect Indochina?

And to beat upon a different horse- was there ever a chance that a similar thing could have happened in northern Korea? Based on prior discussions it seems less likely, because while there were Chinese occupations in the commanderies and general meddling with different Korean kingdoms, China never really exerted direct control there.
 
That is a long distance PoD.

Not knowing that period of history all that much, I imagine that IF China manages to hold on to Tonkin (and given the mountainous frontier it's not a given) you'd see a shift toward Champa like states rather than Annam based ones
 

scholar

Banned
china-728px-Nam-Viet_200bc.jpg


Nanyue was one of the breakaway post-Qin kingdoms. It was furthest south, located in northern Vietnam. Here's some of my prior threads asking about the time period when it was a vassal to the Han:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=216496
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=266900

So what happens if Nanyue is brought into consistent Chinese control, and over the centuries and dynasties, is slowly sinicized and becomes as Chinese as, say, Fujian, or Yunnan?
It was, the Han Dynasty conquered Nanyue, and it remained part of China for the next thousand years, until it was lost in the collapse of the Tang Dynasty. Just having Daiviet being defeated by the Song and reincorporated would make all the difference.
 
It got conquered again by the Ming dynasty in the 15th century. If it stays under Chinese rulership its people are going to be assimilated into wider Chinese ethnic group? system? civilization?
 
It got conquered again by the Ming dynasty in the 15th century. If it stays under Chinese rulership its people are going to be assimilated into wider Chinese ethnic group? system? civilization?

There is general consensus on that question, and the answer is that Vietnam could have stayed Ming. Fortunately the post-Yongle emperors didn't care enough.
 
Were there any portions of Korea that could have similarly undergone such a thing? I'm guessing no, barring very different invasions.

I just find this very interesting because out of the all the polities on the periphery of China (Tibet, Manchuria, Mongolia, Burma?, Taiwan, etc.), Vietnam was the one that was ruled over the longest. It truly is the one that got away. I guess that's a testament to both the independent-mindedness of the Vietnamese people living there, and the ferocity of guerrilla jungle warfare.

It got conquered again by the Ming dynasty in the 15th century. If it stays under Chinese rulership its people are going to be assimilated into wider Chinese ethnic group? system? civilization?

I think it's hard to say because it's complicated to make projections involving huge populations and so forth, but I'd imagine that Nanyue would end up like Fujian, Guangdong, Guangxi, Yunnan, etc., a province full of restive natives who slowly Sinicize over the centuries. Except with more jungle. And maybe more rebellions.
 
The Chinese would claim that Vietnamese is a "dialect" of Chinese and that they've "always" owned it (along with everything else a Chinese person ever saw apparently) and if it ever got independence in 1911, it would be illegally occupied in 1950s a la Tibet.
 
The Chinese would claim that Vietnamese is a "dialect" of Chinese and that they've "always" owned it (along with everything else a Chinese person ever saw apparently) and if it ever got independence in 1911, it would be illegally occupied in 1950s a la Tibet.

Whoa, this goes a bit too far. Since when do Chinese people claim that they own everything they see? Chinese people certainly don't like have Xinjiang in China (you hear fussy fits everyday about this in Shanghai).
 

scholar

Banned
Whoa, this goes a bit too far. Since when do Chinese people claim that they own everything they see? Chinese people certainly don't like have Xinjiang in China (you hear fussy fits everyday about this in Shanghai).
I think he's referring to the concept of Tianxia. Technically, culturally, and philosophically, the Chinese thought they ruled and owned the world. Their emperor, Tianzi, was the son of heaven, and God's veritable lieutenant on Earth for all mankind. If you desired to have any ties at all with them, you must recognize this fact and do obeisance.

Or he might be thinking that once Vietnam's script is made Chinese, and Vietnam is incorporated into China, then it will be regarded as Chinese in the same way that people who do not speak languages that are closely related, are considered Chinese for their script and their geopolitics.

But yeah, it does go too far.
 
I think he's referring to the concept of Tianxia. Technically, culturally, and philosophically, the Chinese thought they ruled and owned the world. Their emperor, Tianzi, was the son of heaven, and God's veritable lieutenant on Earth for all mankind. If you desired to have any ties at all with them, you must recognize this fact and do obeisance.

Or he might be thinking that once Vietnam's script is made Chinese, and Vietnam is incorporated into China, then it will be regarded as Chinese in the same way that people who do not speak languages that are closely related, are considered Chinese for their script and their geopolitics.

But yeah, it does go too far.

Combination of both, very observant. And if sarcasm is too far, I apologize, but the premise is correct of how it would play out as I stated. American "exceptionalism" is attacked so much on AH.com that I often get frustrated that the same chauvenistic exceptionalism about China doesn't get pointed out. (Chauvenistic as in the true meaning of ultra-nationalistic, not as in women bashing) It's human nature and understandable, but we need to admit it on both sides the history of both Chinese and American "Manifest Destiny"s and the historical Chinese equivalent of the Monroe Doctrine along with the modern-day re-interpretation.
 
Combination of both, very observant. And if sarcasm is too far, I apologize, but the premise is correct of how it would play out as I stated. American "exceptionalism" is attacked so much on AH.com that I often get frustrated that the same chauvenistic exceptionalism about China doesn't get pointed out. (Chauvenistic as in the true meaning of ultra-nationalistic, not as in women bashing) It's human nature and understandable, but we need to admit it on both sides the history of both Chinese and American "Manifest Destiny"s and the historical Chinese equivalent of the Monroe Doctrine along with the modern-day re-interpretation.

Exceptionalism? As I've said, China doesn't claim the whole world. They profess a doctrine a non-interference, and the Chinese people don't like have Xinjiang inside China (Chinese meaning Han and Uyghur).

On the other hand, I don't like Chinese aggression in the South China Sea. But when no side is willing to back down and make concessions (both America and China are at fault here), I have to equally blame both sides.

BTW this is getting pretty political. If you want, we can move this elsewhere.
 
Were there any portions of Korea that could have similarly undergone such a thing? I'm guessing no, barring very different invasions.

Portions of Korea did undergo the same thing, unless you're referring to the thousand-year aspect. Northern Korea could have been held more firmly by early dynasties. If it had, inevitably a later (probably medieval) dynasty would seek to conquer the remainder of the peninsula.

I just find this very interesting because out of the all the polities on the periphery of China (Tibet, Manchuria, Mongolia, Burma?, Taiwan, etc.), Vietnam was the one that was ruled over the longest. It truly is the one that got away. I guess that's a testament to both the independent-mindedness of the Vietnamese people living there, and the ferocity of guerrilla jungle warfare.

Not really, no.

The independent-mindedness basically didn't exist for a thousand years. Then came the 5 Dynasties 10 Kingdoms period, when Annam was "independent-minded" in exactly the same sense as all the other southern provinces - local elites saw that they could set themselves up with their own petty kingdoms because the peasants didn't care enough. Then the Song reunited China but - for no particularly inevitable reason - declined to try to reincorporate the province.

Then the Vietnamese began to become truly independent-minded, because China was treating them as such.

I think it's hard to say because it's complicated to make projections involving huge populations and so forth, but I'd imagine that Nanyue would end up like Fujian, Guangdong, Guangxi, Yunnan, etc., a province full of restive natives who slowly Sinicize over the centuries. Except with more jungle. And maybe more rebellions.

Not like Fujian or Guangdong. If Guangxi wasn't properly sinicized, there's no reason to think the fewer and later colonists passing it to reach a reconquered Annam would do any better.

Not like Yunnan, either. Yunnan was full of a huge diversity of peoples, almost all oriented in part towards mountain and high-valley societies. This left an opening for Han and Hui (Muslim Han) immigrants to swamp the low valleys with Chinese-style intensive agriculture. The Vietnamese were one major ethnic group located only in the good rice country. Even today, Vietnamese majority areas are just under half the land area of that skinny little country, because they almost exclusively live in the coastal lowlands. Though I suppose you could argue that those same highland bits of the province would be somewhat like Yunnan.

Vietnam would be like Guangxi, if it had never been left out in the cold by a united dynasty. You'd have a large minority province, the population of which takes for granted that they're Chinese, though in a lot of ways they truly aren't.

Very little of the OTL system of "Chinese" characters made up for the Vietnamese words with no Chinese equivalent. Instead they'd make do with the written language of the empire.
 
The Chinese would claim that Vietnamese is a "dialect" of Chinese and that they've "always" owned it (along with everything else a Chinese person ever saw apparently) and if it ever got independence in 1911, it would be illegally occupied in 1950s a la Tibet.

No. They would not refer to the language as a dialect. They are aware of the difference between mutually unintelligible strains of Chinese on the one hand, and unrelated minority tongues on the other. More importantly, they don't see any political reason even in OTL to deny language status like that (they're busy enough insisting Cantonese and Suzhounese/Wu/Shanghainese aren't languages).

Arguing that the place is inherently Chinese by right, that's a different thing.

As for the inevitability of reconquest in something like the OTL modern era.... Go tell it to the Mongolians.

If Vietnam never gained independence aside from the usual periods between successful dynasties, and if something like the OTL European irruption still played out, and if a dynasty still fell apart under Western pressure in 1911.... Actually, even after 2000 years as a Chinese province, it might still be independent a hundred plus years later. Just look at the geography - Vietnam's all coastline backed by rough low mountain terrain. If European interference contributes to dynastic collapse, that interference is unlikely to go away anytime soon. China conquering the place would be a project similar to the OTL PRC with regard to Taiwan - waiting generations to get strong enough to make it possible, then using economic pressure to try to drag the province back.

One big effect would be the absence of Vietnamese people from much of central and southern OTL Vietnam. Probably the Mekong delta would remain Khmer. Eventually a Cham state would form - alternately a vassal and an annoyance to China.
 
One big effect would be the absence of Vietnamese people from much of central and southern OTL Vietnam.
....Instead, they would probably remain in OTL Laotian provinces of Bolikhamay, Khammuane and north-central Vietnam. In addition, Vietnamese would probably known as "Muong" and their country as "Muong Di".
 
....Instead, they would probably remain in OTL Laotian provinces of Bolikhamay, Khammuane and north-central Vietnam. In addition, Vietnamese would probably known as "Muong" and their country as "Muong Di".

What's the background of those names, I'm unfamiliar?

The locals might just use a locally-derived name for the place, but upon reflection I think you have that aspect off. In China the province's names through history would be handed down from above, and local people would most likely speak of the region with a Vietnamese-language equivalent to the Chinese name.
 
What's the background of those names, I'm unfamiliar?
Aside from the fact that Vietnamese is a member of Austroasiatic language family through (Vietic group), there's actually an OTL ethnic group that are related to the Vietnamese; they're called Muong. In this scenario, all Vietnamese, no matter how partly-Sinicized they are, they would still called themselves Muong.


Here's a sample:
vietic_postglottals.jpg


Please read this interesting PDF for more details.
 
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Aside from the fact that Vietnamese is a member of Austroasiatic language family through (Vietic group), there's actually an OTL ethnic group that are related to the Vietnamese; they're called Muong. In this scenario, all Vietnamese, no matter how partly-Sinicized they are, they would still called themselves Muong.


Here's a sample:
vietic_postglottals.jpg


Please read this interesting PDF for more details.

It's possible I'm missing something, but what about that says that we should expect the Tai name for "city" or "settlement", which in some cases was coopted by Vietic peoples to refer to Tai-language speakers, to become permanently applied to the people or the place?

I can certainly see it continuing to be a word in use, but I'm not clear why you think it would be a major word. Or the major word. I think it's very likely that they would primarily identify based on their place within Chinese society or in contrast to it.
 
It's possible I'm missing something, but what about that says that we should expect the Tai name for "city" or "settlement", which in some cases was coopted by Vietic peoples to refer to Tai-language speakers, to become permanently applied to the people or the place?
Oh,I'm not fully aware that Muong was originally a Tai-language term (mueang/เมือง), because I honestly don't think of a proper term for the Vietic peoples in TTL.
 
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scholar

Banned
So Northern Vietnam becoming part of China "proper" is more likely than parts of Korea, right?
Yes, after the 300s AD, and definitely after around 900 ad. The demographics of northern china shifted south after the civil wars and nomadic invasions, and while there was a brief chance under the Tang and Song for Korea to be recaptured as well, the Liao/Jin prevented that, and the Ming and Qing were never in a position to want or desire it when they were more wedded t the idea of Vietnam or Central Asia.
 
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