WI: Christian Communism became a major movement in the US

Today, Communism is often seen by many Christians as being completely at odds with Christianity. While there are aspects of it that are indeed at odds with Christianity (and religion in general) its focus on the idea of social justice and equality for all are ideas that Christians advocate through their beliefs. Today there are those who call Jesus a socialist or Communist, and there are even Christian Communist groups.

Suppose then that, we'll go with the Third Great Awakening in the United States, that a movement began to spring up that tied Communism to the Christian faith and the Social Gospel together into a single entity pushing for social and economic justice for all.

What effects might this have had on the United States? Might it be able to gather a large enough force to push for major social change in the United States, more so then it did originally?

Hmm. The last "Christian Communist" I can think of was Jim Jones. I would tell a joke about him and his People's Temple, but the punchline is too long.

In twenty years it becomes another extreme fringe movement, if it wasn't already.

With the rise of the Soviet Union and Stalin's Shady Dictatorship & Company, no American, let alone politician will be a CC. Plus, this will likely be shut down by the atheist Marxists, common businessmen, and the mega-corps of the late 19th century.

I think the Restorationism movement needs to gain more ground for more to associate with the "communism" practiced by the Apostles. Even then, any form of religious "communism" is far from the practiced Marxist, Leninist and Stalinist systems of "communism", which is surrounded by " as communism only refers to the end goal, not the inbetween systems which are the only ones known.

Strangely enough, you only need to tweek Roman Catholic doctrine to make it Communist, while the Protestants, the majority, are much less organized, and farther.

No common man wants change in society, so the only movement with any power whatsoever in the US other than the Infinite Democrat-Republican Complex are the Greens with 151 elected positions, no governorships, no seats in Congress. If only we had mandatory voting and philosophical education, my CPUSA

Sorry if I got carried away, but I've been listening to too much metal and I get to standby and watch as Joni "We're Gonna Make Them Squeal" Ernst gets elected

I would like to point out that the time frame for this What if is in the 1850's, 60+ years before the Soviet Union even exists. I think your applying your post to a more modern context, forgetting that the Great Awakening in America not only brought hundreds of thousands of converts and restored many peoples connection with the church, it also in large part boosted various Social Change groups, such as abolition, Early Womens rights, prohibition (which arguably should have been done differently).

Making Thomas Hagerty more influential would be a good start.

Rainbow Sparkle said:

I would like to point out that the time frame for this What if is in the 1850's, 60+ years before the Soviet Union even exists. I think your applying your post to a more modern context, forgetting that the Great Awakening in America not only brought hundreds of thousands of converts and restored many peoples connection with the church, it also in large part boosted various Social Change groups, such as abolition, Early Womens rights, prohibition (which arguably should have been done differently).

Click to expand...

The problem with this is that there isn't one united Church in the US even if one Protestant group supported Christian Communism that rest aren't going along with it especially not the Catholics. This is also true for the opposite if the Catholics supported Communism then the Protestants are not which prevents any group from gaining a sizeable following hence why these movements have all failed in reality.

The problem is that Karl Marx, an atheist, became the de facto inspiration for communist/socialist movements worldwide. You need a different person in Europe - a practicing Christian - to write the Communist Manifesto. To get that to happen, you might need to go back to the French Revolution and have it never become so anti-religious.

Hagerty's a good real-world figure for this but it does mean Christian Communism couldn't start until 1895 at earliest (assuming he starts immediately). That's near the end of the Third Great Awakening. The Communist Manifesto reaches the US in 1872 so if that starts to catch on with some priests, you can have Christian Communism be part of the Awakening around then but then who starts it?

If 1872 or close to, it could end up being a big deal. By the time of the Russian Revolution(s), this form of communism will be 45 years old; it'll be an established part of American politics and can go "well that's atheist communists for you". It'll probably quite popular too, based on the success of Great Awakening reforms and the working conditions of the 19th & early 20th century. Other communists aren't going to like this at all but if Christian Communism catches on first, what are they gonna do? This could be good for the Socialist Party of America, deflecting a lot of the backlash and crackdowns they got (now if only they can stop internal fights).

The Awakening also liked missionaries, so you'll have Christian Communists going abroad - I doubt they'll be popular with governments overseas (or foreign communists) but they could start spreading the beliefs. Maybe they'll be allowed in to Europe by governments that think "ahahaha, go fight among yourselves commies".

Hagerty's going to dive into this headfirst and, by the sound of his work ethic and rhetoric, become a big man in the movement.


(What does this do for race relations? Communism should be an anti-racist ideology but will that be downplayed, left out, or just outright ignored by Christian Communists when nobody's looking?)

If the Great Depression still happens as in our timeline, here's a pre-existing ideology with 56 years of weight behind it, lots of speakers and ideas that will resonate and doesn't require you to turn on the church. Its time will have truly come. And it'll explode right in time for two congressional elections, two senate elections, some gubernational elections, and a presidential election. Christian Communists are going to get in power and other men will get in power by appealing to Christian Communists. If the Socialist Party survived, Norman Thomas - who is going to be a CC himself in this timeline - could become president (and likely already has been a New York State Senator after 1926). A Socialist government, or coalition of CC politicians, goes on to bring in socialist policies to bring America out of the Great Depression.

What happens after that depends on how good the Thomas administration is, how many competent members it would have, if the Socialists and other CCs can avoid ripping into each other for not being socialist enough, how foreign powers respond to the US being a bunch of bally commies etc etc etc. Either way, their victory will embolden Christian Communists and socialist parties in other countries. If Thomas does a good job or at least can be presented as doing a good job, the Labour Party makes big gains at the 1935 general election - possibly wins, giving us an Atlee government ten years early. (This one requires a big gain for Labour but the USA voting Socialist would be a big deal. A downside here is that it would delay our rearmament and make us weaker if/when war breaks out with Germany) The Thomas government may support the Republicans in Spain with money and arms (but not likely to send troops), as antimilitarism may seem like a bad policy when it's fellow lefties getting bombed instead of a war between European imperialists, which would alter the course of the Spanish Civil War. (If he loses the 1936 election and the fascists are still around then, however, it'll get right back on track)

If Thomas wins a second election, do we get a Second World War as we know it? If Hitler thinks the United States might intervene - even just with guns and money - is he going to want to risk conquering Poland? (Czechslovakia, he needs to risk because it gets him Sudetenland and a way to march into the USSR) Will he even be able to invade the USSR which, even if it's an atheist communist dictatorship, will still be a communist country?

A very interesting post. I may comment on thoughts and such later today when I'm not tired.

Back in/after the era of the Great Awakening, there were some groups that were semi-socialist in practice.

Some of the Mormons (LDS) practiced what could be called a semi-socialist type system called the United Order, where resources were shared. This was mainly done in the times leading up to their exodus to Utah and in the first decade or two after settling Utah.

It wasn't communist, per se, and certainly had a Christ-centered focus, but it had the basic socialist view of sharing.

With that mindset, Mormons in Utah were actually predominantly Democrats around 1900 (after emancipation and all that was settled). Some would say they only later tended toward the Republicans when the Democrats drifted toward big government, anti-religion, government give aways to buy votes, destruction of personal responsibility, pro-drug, etc.

Following on from last post, I'd theorise:

- Hitler goes for the Soviet Union in 1939, rallying his other fascist chums to help. Germany and the USSR aren't in the same place as they were in our 1941 but we still get the Axis bogging down, the Red Army pushing them back and the Axis pushing back, mass killings etc. The USA may start sending aid to the USSR. A number of countries will start hitting the Nazis and Italy with sanctions that bite into its ability to wage war (the genocide is going to be hard to ignore and various governments want Hitler & Mussolini to go away). Foreign communists, socialists, Jews and Russian descendants will go off in international brigades. The Axis will be in an extreme bind, slowly bleeding out and at least Romania is going to get invaded (and Czechslovakia 'liberated'). No Marshall Plan for them here either.

- A side effect from this is that the Holocaust as we know it doesn't happen. Jews are worked to death in concentration camps and are slaughtered across the USSR, but even if the Nazis get round to the death camps they don't kill as many because most of Europe isn't conquered. The Jews of Greater Germany and Czechslovakia can also flee across borders - will be encouraged to. The Holocaust also removes one of the big reasons so many emigrated to Mandatory Palestine and one of the big reasons Israel as we know it existed. (Britain is committed to forming a Jewish homeland but when, what it looks like who lives there et al will all be different)

- Does Japan want to go to war with the Empires if Germany isn't there too? They'll still have imperial ambitions but they may have to be sneakier about it; if they go to war, maybe they stick to the Dutch East Indies because they figure nobody else going to go to war over a Dutch colony. Maybe, Cold War style, they start covertly backing and starting rebel groups in Asian colonies?

- I'm assuming Thomas wins in 1936. After that, unless the Socialists shit the bed I see them taking 1940 as well under their new candidate (President Hagerty!). If they shit the bed but not too apocalyptically, the Democrats came in bellowing "we'll keep the stuff you liked but not be them!". If they shit it up bad, the Republicans have a chance. Unless America goes to war and wins at this point, I do not see the Socialists winning in 1944. That's when the Republicans get back in: 12 years of one party and ideology will grate and an alternative will look appealing, and the Republicans have that alternative.

- If they don't win in 1940, the Democrats are probably stuffed - they've been supplanted as the left-wing's big boy.

- The allied European Empires haven't been brutalised and had to retake colonies. Atlee and Chums, IIRC, wanted to make the Empire more socialistic, more of a commonwealth, increase the standards of living, and not fight with nationalists. (All of that while Britain is still in charge, of course!) That means, for one, India gets independence early. Other colonies become dominions or also gain independence. Add that to Japan's activities above and it's bad times for other Empires - dissidence, violence, demands for freedom - and bad times for the colonies as Paris, Brussels etc send in the troops. Also, no WW2 as we know it means the UK doesn't send nuclear info to the US and so it's Britain that tests the first bomb. (The US will catch up)

- Add to all that, Christian Communism will have been spread abroad and some of the independence movements will be CCs or affiliated with them. Some will look to the US for help. (Socialism and CC's may end up discredited in parts of the British Empire, where this is a thing London claims to be)

End result is instead of two superpowers having a global cold war, you still have multiple great powers and you get multiple cold wars.

So in a fit of procrastination:

* 1872: the Communist Manifesto reaches the United States and gets read by a few young, firebrand East Coast clergymen (who I will duly invent) during the Third Great Awakening. (POD) Pastors Oliver Bachmann of New York and Jack Alderdrife of Savannah, who had a deep friendship suspended by long correspondence, become leaders of this group. A black preacher, Noah Turner, becomes the third pillar of the movement after in-person talks with Alderdrife. The principles of shared ownership, communities, and worker solidarity against oppressors is something all three men and their followers believe should be part of the gospel.

* "Christian Communism" spreads slowly but surely during the Third Great Awakening. It's one of several new brands of protestantism but it starts to catch on with the urban poor - the focus on working conditions and wealth speaks to them - and southern African-Americans who are chafing under the aftermath of Reconstruction. While the big issues are all agreed on, the fine details differ in different parts of the country and this can lead to slanging matches. Missionaries are sent abroad and face a lot of pressure to go home again from states who don't want dirty reds showing up.

* Reverend Hagerty rises to prominence in the movement when he campaigns against the railroads in Texas and New Mexico and translates the teachings into Spanish for Mexican immigrants. Christian Communism has never quite made it in these states but Hagerty carves out a foothold (and when some of the immigrant workers slip back to Mexico they bring Christian Communist views with them). His work with the Socialist Party causes it to grow - it's still a minor player but larger than OTL, large enough to be taken seriously and with seats in more states.

* A brief backlash happens after 1917 and the rise of the USSR but the CC's, widespread and moderately influential, are able to push back - "this," they argue, "is the result of Communism without Christ." This ensures the Socialist Party gets through without issue and Norman Thomas becomes a NY State Senator in 1926. A bigger problem is that Christian Communists - many of whom supported prohibition - end up clashing with the mobs, and some clergy and activists will die for it. (A not inconsiderable minority will sell out)

* Racial politics are also advanced by 10-20 more years on our time: Christian Communism preaches against racism and has a strong black following. A large number of white CC's are still racist - they don't want their daughters 'coming home with one' and wouldn't respect a black superior at work - but are fine with using the same water fountain and with their fellow worker having equal pay. This has both a positive and negative effects in the south as the racist gitbags double down in the face of their greatest foe, change.

* The Great Depression hits and both Christian Communism and the Socialist Party have a surge of interest - they're offering both an alternative and a socially acceptable way to be angry with The Ones Who Done It. When the Bonus Army are met with violence, there's even greater rage than in OTL (and MacArthur's career never recovers). With Thomas as their candidate, the Socialist Party form a large minority government with CC Democrats giving them the power to pass much of their legislation.

* Socialist policies - "the Square Deal" - are used to get America working and working at improving itself. (A large amount of this will be similar to OTL's New Deal but marketed differently) The Socialists have been catapulted to power and are reliant on a Democrat minority, two factors that cause a lot of grumbling and in-fighting and firebrands snarling that they're "wasting our shot" by not being socialist enough. Good spin from friendly clergy and an increase in employment mean many Americans don't care about these wars in Washington. The one issue that does shock them - which President Thomas holds after midterms, where the Socialists have a slight increase - is the desegregation of the army and a phased desegregation of schools. Both proposals pass but southern states get angry and violent, with the army having to be sent in to protect children.

* Socialists across the world are emboldened - fascists and autocrats freak. The Nazis feel they came to power just in time (their rise gets more condemnation from the US, as the Thomas government sees fellow travellers being rounded up). The Labour Party narrowly wins in the UK after promising "America's Miracle Made In Britain" and Clement Atlee is Prime Minister - Lords is soon abolished and a type of decolonisation (dominion status for places like India) comes in earlier. The Blackshirts march more but, luckily, are idiots. Czechslovakia has a socialist coalition government after 1935, which the Nazis are pleased with because it helps them rally the right-wing Sudeten Germans and the cause of 'liberating' their kin. The Philippines (who've been getting a lot of Christina Communist missionaries over the years) ends up as a commonwealth early, with the Socialist Party hoping to make it independent before their first term ends. ("In four years or less? But that wouldn't end well," you say? It doesn't. But it's Manilla's problem now!)

* Christian Communism allows for 'just war' but the Socialists had no intention of any such thing, not after WW1. The Spanish Civil War prompts a rethink: here are fascists about to repeat Hitler's takeover against fellow lefties and only violence will stop it. The US can't go to war yet but what it can do is join Mexico in sending money and guns to the Republicans. (Christian Communists are divided on this - the Republicans have many anti-clergy people and this sparks memories of the bad commies in Russia) This counters the Italian and German support. Significantly, the Italians dare not intervene against Republican naval blockades in case that crosses a line.

* President Thomas and the Socialists retain power in the 1936 elections and carry on as they are. That includes lots of infighting and arguments, which are becoming ever more public and hurt their image. This also includes the Spanish Civil War which ends in Republican victory in 1937. And that cause a problem as...

* Nazi Germany needs the Sudetenland to get its Greater Germany and it needs Czechslovakia for its own sake & to have a way into the USSR. But there's now a serious risk that the US might intervene over it. Hitler goes for it anyway and uses it every asset it has in the US (and Italy's too) to pressure the Thomas government not to intervene. The Sudeten Germans want to reunify! Loaning tanks to Czechslovakia will only make things worse and anyway, there's too much needs doing at home! Thomas isn't an idiot but there are midterms to worry about, so he decides to let Sudetenland "reunify" and sends a bare minimum of firepower to Czechslovakia "to reassure Prague that there'll be no trouble".

* Of course, trouble happens - which Thomas and Atlee (who has realised that Britain will need to rearm against growing threats sooner than OTL, as he's now responsible for the Empire) were expecting. France had a treaty with Czechslovakia and doesn't want to enforce it with French boys, but it does agree to send guns and help the US & UK send them. Thomas has already ensured "advisors" were in place to help the Czechslovakians if need be. Germany is winning anyway but slower, and the US government makes sure every German atrocity is splashed across the media - giving it the excuse to tell Hitler to stand down or be at war. Hitler does not stand down. Czechslovakia falls but with the British & French Empires, Spain, and the US against Germany, it's not long before a coup is made by some very panicked generals who can tell where this is going. German forces pull out of Czechslovakia but are allowed to keep Sudetenland so the new government won't have a "stab in the back" stigma.

* By 1940, the left-wingers in the UK, US, Spain, and Czechslovakia are in power on the patriotic war-winning bounce. The Democrats are now the third party in US politics but the Republicans are regrouping to offer an alternative, one of hard work leading to deserved wealth and of America's great traditions. Christian Communism is now old, the status quo: new movements and political views are catching on with young Americans. Abroad, Christian Communism is having a resurgence and old-school communism, who can only boast Stalin as its success story, is losing hearts and minds. The Soviet Union remains isolated and goes increasingly toxic. Meanwhile, Italy and Imperial Japan haven't gone away. They've seen Hitler flare out and crap up and are determined to learn from his mistakes. Tomorrow belongs to them.