Your mission, should decide to accept it, is to make North America(includes Canada and Mexico) and the Caribbean colonies of the Ottoman Empire. Will the Turks be more powerful if they, not England, France, and Spain colonize the New World. Would the Indians be forced to become Moslems? Also, what would be the names of the Ottoman colonies in the new world be? Oh, one more thing: what Sultan would reign when this empire forms?
Ottomans of the New World
- Thread starter pureet1948
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To even have a prayer of this being plausible, you need, NEED to avoid the Ottoman's civil war due to Tamerlane, and really NEED to have the Ottomans focusing on North Africa early. The biggest thing stopping this from being plausible is that the Ottomans are really far away from good ports to do this, and the ones that are good for this are hard nuts to crack, Spain and Portugal. You'd need a situation where a) The Ottomans cannot control the spice trade to actually have an interest in colonization, but b) Are strong enough to break Spain and Portugal. That's HARD. And really, really unlikely. I won't say ASB, but damn is that a tricky proposition.
I was thinking more along the lines of an EASTWARD expansion of the Ottoman Empire, all the way to India, I think. (Note: I refer to the Indian Mughal Empire. Both being Moslems, the Sultan and the Moghul might be allies). I believe the ports they would sail from would be Hormuz, the Malabar Coast, and (maybe) Ceylon. From that point forward, I envision HUGE Ottoman galleys sailing to Java, up the east China coast, and northward toward Japan and Korea. Now, if the Ottoman navigators were to hear stories of islands to the northeast of Hokkaido and these islands turned out to be the Aleutians, what then?
Problem is that's much farther than the Atlantic route, much farther than people give it credit for. And why would they have larger ships, if they are more land focused. They would probably not have the resources to send huge expeditions to the new world if they have to control their OTL empire, plus Persia, and India. Also, I don't think that they new of the Aleutians, as those aren't that close to Hokkaido, and the Japanese didn't figure out about them OTL as far as I know.
1. You're forgetting about the Ainu of Hokkaido, Zorqal. On some trips to Japan that I've made I've had some Ainus brag to me about what good seafarers they are. It's always possible that an Ainu could have been the first Asian to reach Alaska.
2. And why would they have larger ships, if they are more land focused? I think you've hit upon a possible POD, Zorqal. Perhaps if a sultan came to the throne who believed that sea power was the key to Ottoman greatness......
2. And why would they have larger ships, if they are more land focused? I think you've hit upon a possible POD, Zorqal. Perhaps if a sultan came to the throne who believed that sea power was the key to Ottoman greatness......
While the Ottomans are certainly a land empire, they are by no means helpless on sea and were a strong power in the Mediterranean for almost the entirety of their existence, and it's probably the division of the Ottoman military that retained a degree of prestige even during the Ottoman Empire's decline. But, they are a very Mediterranean sea power, which means galleys and the like. Having them get into more ocean-traversing vessels would be a challenge.
An alternative is always to have the Ottomans subsidize pirate havens in the Caribbean, which then over time become Ottoman colonies.
The reasoning for this could run thus: 1) Spain is our enemy -> 2) Spain gets a lot of its gold from the New World treasure fleet -> 3) Disrupting the New World treasure fleet will hurt Spain -> 4) Let's pay for pirates to disrupt the treasure fleet!
It doesn't even have to be Muslim corsairs - I'm sure there are more than enough Europeans who'd jump at the opportunity for state-sponsored piracy. So you could have a few Caribbean pirate havens, all nominally swearing fealty to the Ottomans, with Ottoman gold covertly funding the whole venture from Europe.
Then to have the Ottomans get Mexico and North America it's probably just a question of having a Drake-esque pirate do so much damage to the Spanish treasure fleets and, by extension, to the Spanish treasury, that the whole Habsburg Empire just goes bankrupt and collapses in on itself, leaving the colonies juicy targets for official Ottoman expansion, especially if Spain and Austria are no longer barriers to the Turks.
But no, this would not make the Ottomans stronger. Getting the Americas will just put in the Ottomans in the same situation as the 16thC Spanish - way too many fronts for the resources they have. Gold they invest in the New World is gold not being used to secure actual Imperial borders, and this will have repercussions.
As for names... probably Karayipler, Antiller, Meksika, Amerika. It's not like the Turks had an aversion to European names or anything.
The reasoning for this could run thus: 1) Spain is our enemy -> 2) Spain gets a lot of its gold from the New World treasure fleet -> 3) Disrupting the New World treasure fleet will hurt Spain -> 4) Let's pay for pirates to disrupt the treasure fleet!
It doesn't even have to be Muslim corsairs - I'm sure there are more than enough Europeans who'd jump at the opportunity for state-sponsored piracy. So you could have a few Caribbean pirate havens, all nominally swearing fealty to the Ottomans, with Ottoman gold covertly funding the whole venture from Europe.
Then to have the Ottomans get Mexico and North America it's probably just a question of having a Drake-esque pirate do so much damage to the Spanish treasure fleets and, by extension, to the Spanish treasury, that the whole Habsburg Empire just goes bankrupt and collapses in on itself, leaving the colonies juicy targets for official Ottoman expansion, especially if Spain and Austria are no longer barriers to the Turks.
But no, this would not make the Ottomans stronger. Getting the Americas will just put in the Ottomans in the same situation as the 16thC Spanish - way too many fronts for the resources they have. Gold they invest in the New World is gold not being used to secure actual Imperial borders, and this will have repercussions.
As for names... probably Karayipler, Antiller, Meksika, Amerika. It's not like the Turks had an aversion to European names or anything.
That's actually an interesting scenario; having the Turks pull a Dutch Republic on the Spanish, which would probably require them to take Gibraltar as a naval base, and becoming interested when the money starts flowing. Having the Turks ally the Dutch Republic during its independence war would certainly give them the window to utterly screw Spain, but if they're screwing Spain they're also screwing Austria, and that means that their priorities would undoubtedly be focused elsewhere. But a Drake analogue is certainly the best idea; a promising individual gets sent with lots of money and men to the New World.
Splendid work EMT and profxyz! I declare your contributions an alternate history!
BUT NOW....
How do the Ottomans deal with the Indians, esp. the Apaches, the Navajos and the tribes of Washington State and Oregon? Would they force them to convert to Islam? Would they enslave them? Would Indian squaws be taken back to Constantinople as wenches for the Sultan's harem?
BUT NOW....
How do the Ottomans deal with the Indians, esp. the Apaches, the Navajos and the tribes of Washington State and Oregon? Would they force them to convert to Islam? Would they enslave them? Would Indian squaws be taken back to Constantinople as wenches for the Sultan's harem?
I suspect slavery (sexual or otherwise) would be the first use the Ottomans had for the Native Americans - especially as they wouldn't be People of the Book. If their first American colonies were actually pirate havens then slavery would have pretty much been a fact once direct administration was established anyway.
But then again, from the European experience American Indians weren't terribly good slaves, so perhaps if the Ottomans actually do focus on the Americas they'd just import African slaves like Europe did.
I doubt the Ottomans are much interested in the tribes of the Pacific northwest and Great Basin, unless gold is found there early. Probably too far to convert or exterminate, though the discovery of a whole continent of unbelievers ripe for conquest could have a massive impact on Islam's jihad and gazi traditions (as well as for Sufism).
Check Soverihn's TL "Kayser i-Rum". It does not have Ottomans in Americas just yet, or whether it will, but Ottomans in that TL acquired Constantinople about a century earlier and thus was able to conquer Italy. That's a considerably closer start then OTL Ottoman Empire ever had to go for the New World.
What about using Native American Islamic converts as a proxy colonists for the Pacific Northwest, Plains and Great Basin? Could that work?
That'd imply that the Native Americans completely abandon their old ways of life in favor of conforming with the Ottomans and Islam, which I find unlikely. You may get conversions, but I don't think we'd see cultural assimilation to that extent.
I disagree. The Indians would have no choice but to conform to the Ottomans. Any Islamic empire will give the conquered a choice: Submit to Allah, or be destroyed. Islam, remember, means, "submission to the will of God."
Paul MacQ
Monthly Donor
I would have you disagree with you on this one. The Muslims of the time being much more lenient towards other faiths than the Catholics of the time. They prefer people of the book continuing there faith. Human sacrifice though would cause a local Jihad I am sure though.
Ottomans get involved in saving Andalusia/Granada falling in 1492 Pushing Back the Spanish.
Need a Brilliant on the order of a Muslim Napoleon to make it happen. I think we can agree he was not ASB.
Then Go from there. Granada knowing there existence depended on the Ottomans. Added a defeat of the Venetians and taking Malta would have to unfold in your story.Granada Pirates hunting Portuguese ships along the African coast get blown towards Brazil.
You would have to unfold your story. And 2-3 Brilliant characters and you would be there. Thing about brilliant people is they happen.