British Florida endures: Collaborative TL

So my thoughts are.

How to create a situation in which.

1. The US becomes independent much as it did in OTL.

2. Spain did NOT regain Florida (they lose the Battle of Pensacola, which is what handed the Spanish Florida during the American war of independence),and Canada stays British.

3. The Napoleonic wars see Florida become of strategic interest to Britain vis a vis Louisiana (particularly New Orleans) and the French Caribbean. In the post Napoleonic settlement, Floridian borders are adjusted to take account of potential territorial expansions at the expense of France, in favour of the British from Florida

4. The US still becomes a `coast to coast` power, no doubt involving the purchase/seizure of at least some of the OTL Louisiana Purchase

5. The war of 1812 or a similar conflict at a roughly similar time, happens and the US has to fight on two fronts with the British

6. The resultant `successor states` to British North America are an dominion of Canada and dominion of Florida.

My areas to consider are.

If Florida had been retained, as pointed out in other posts by other posters, Florida might well have become the natural destination for lots of Southern Loyalists.

Presumably Canada is less settled (although likely still fairly heavilly settled by northern Loyalists)

What is a plausible chain of events to match my points.

I was thinking on important event is to stop the siezure of British Florida by the Spanish. IIRC the Spanish siezure of Pensacola was the decisive blow for British control of Florida, but it very nearly didnt happen. The Spanish governor of Louisiana and his force of ships left New Orleans and nearly sank, instead getting blown off course and marooned in Cuba for months before re emabarking. Having the loss of the fleet that conquered Florida might be a useful POD

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Pensacola



1779.

Spain enters the war against Great Britain along side the United States and France.

General John Campbell, concerned over the condition of the defenses, requested reinforcements, and began construction of additional defenses. By early 1781, the Pensacola garrison consisted of the 16th Regiment, a battalion from the 60th, and 7 (Johnstones) Company of the 4th Battalion Royal Artillery (Present day 20 Battery Royal Artillery, 16 Regiment Royal Artillery).

These were augmented by the Third Regiment of Waldeck and The Maryland Loyalist Battalion as well as the Pennsylvania Loyalists. These troops were provincial soldiers, rather than militia.

General Campbell erects a battery, Campbell also erected a battery called Fort Barrancas Colorada on Santa Rosa island (now the King George III historical fort complex) near the mouth of the bay. The building is manned by numerous heavy cannons and elements of the 60th company of the Royal Artillery *

September 1779. Forces led by Bernardo de Galvez, governor of Spanish Louisiana, capture the lightly defended British Fort Bute, gaining complete control for Spain of the lower Missisippi River,and then shortly thereafter obtaining the surrender of the remaining forces following the Battle of Baton Rouge

March 1780. Galvez arrives at the British Fort Charlotte (Mobile). Elias Durnford, British commander of the 300 strong garrison is heavilly outnumbered by the almost 1300 Spaniards. Dispatching a rider to Pensacola and the military Commander of West Florida, aid fails to arrive in time and Mobile falls to Spanish forces.

1780-1781. Following the fall of Mobile, various native American tribes such as the Choctaw and Creeks congregate in and around Pensacola, supporting their British allies. Disregarding advice, General John Campbell, military commander of West Florida consolidates his forces and the native forces in the area, and intensifies diplomatic efforts to win the Muscogee and Tallapoosa Creeks to his side and prevent them selling arms to the Spanish. By May 1781, almost 2000 natives are in the area, being drilled in modern British drill warfare.

Throughout the course of these two years, Dunford is proactive in promoting the establishment of `lotalist militias` and even the first `freedman militia` formed of escaped slaves. By 1781 these militias number some 1500 in and around Pensacola, and as many as twice that number throughout West Florida**


June 17th 1780, Alexander McGillivray, also known as Hoboi-Hili-Miko, principal chief of the Muscogee Creek, commisioned officer of the British army and local negotiator with the other Creek nations, catches a fever and dies***

October 1780. Bernardo de Gálvez departs New Orleans with an invasion fleet carrying many thousands of men, the regular troops included an Majorcan regiment and Arturo O'Neill (later Governor of Spanish West and East Florida) commanding 319 men of Spain's Irish Hibernia Regiment, and including militias of biracial and free Afro-Cubans. Gálvez had also ordered additional troops from New Orleans and Mobile to assist.

Enroute to Pensacola, a large hurricane disperses the fleet of 29 ships. Eventually, throughout the month of October, the majority of the ships limp into Havanna instead. Of the original 29 ships, 22 limp into port.

Notable amongst the absent ships, is the 64 cannon, lead ship San Ramon, flag ship of the erstwhile governor of Louisiana.

With the absence of De Galvez, the plans are thrown into disarray with a significant number of soldiers, the commander and crucially the majority of cannons and gunpowder now sitting at the bottom of the gulf of Mexico.

Command of the expedition is Col. José de Ezpeleta, a personal friend of Gálvez.

In the meantime, hearing reports of a large fleet departing from New Orleans, Dunford commandeers some 7 ships from Louisiana, impounded in the bay around the city.****

Sinking the ships in strategic points, the bay is significantly obstructed for any approaching Spanish ships

Riders are sent to St Augustine in East Florida. Patrick Toyne, governor of the east dispatches a force of 1500 loyalists and 500 Grenadiers on a forced march west.

* IN OTL it wasnt regularly manned, and when the Spanish arrived they put their own cannons on it and stopped nearby British ships from landing in the bay and disrupting the Spanish landing their troops.

**One slight POD-in OTL the British stationed their native allies away from the city, not expecting the Spanish attack and werent proactive enough in winning the Muscogee to their cause. The British also showed relative slowness is establishing widespread loyalist militias.

*** Credited with effectively betraying the British with his negotiations with the Tallapoosa Creeks. Him out of the picture.....

****In OTL, it was Galvez who made use of the ships from Lousiana when he arrived near Pensacola

Another Contribution


A proclamation, written after the victory at Pensacola before the defeat of Yorktown, as it was becoming evident that the British government was preparing to negotiate with the colonials. Often interperated as a way of securing the British hold on Florida and Canada by encouraging loyalists to settle the areas under British control

BY THE KING

A PROCLAMATION

To all whom these presents shall come, Greetings.

Whereas of late our dominions in America have been rent with discord and treason, we do heartilly commend and encourage those who live amongst such disorder in the continuance of their demonstrances of loyalty to the crown.

In as much as it is possible, we offer rewards and protections to all who take up arms in defence of the crown.

TO all chattels and indentured servants who have taken up arms in defence of the Crown during the late disorder, we offer full liberty and lands in our dominions of East and West Florida.

To all chattels and indentured servants who are so able, the borders of East and West Florida, and the borders of upper and lower Canada shall make you and your progeny free for all time.

To all indians, we offer protection against the ravages of discord and rebel attack, and the surety of broken treaties should the traitors prevail.

To all those dispossessed by these rebels and their so called government, in exchange for your service in arms for the crown, those who shall personally apply to the governors of East and West Florida, and Upper and Lower Canada, shall recieve the following quantities of land, subject at the expiration of ten years, to the same quit rents as other lands are subject to in the province within which they are granted, as also subject to the same conditions of cultivation and improvement, in exchange for service in our militias for 2 days in every 30,so applying between this present instant and the first day of April in the year of our lord Seventeen Hundred and Ninety One, viz.

To every person having the rank of a Field Officer, - - 5000 Acres

To every Captain, - - 3000 Acres

To every Subaltern or Staff Officer, - - 2000 Acres

To every non commissioned Officer, - - 200 Acres

To every private man, - - 50 Acres.

To every freedman or indian, - - 25 Acres.


Given at our Court, at St. James's, the 9th. day of April, one thousand, seven hundred and Eighty One, in the twenty first year of our reign.

GOD SAVE THE KING​

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19 October 1781.

Following the Siege of Yorktown, General Charles Cornwallis surrenders to General George Washington at Yorktown, Virginia, ending the armed struggle of the American Revolution.

1783.

The Peace of Paris. Various treaties are signed between Great Britain and the United States, France, Spain and their allies.

Key points include the confirmation of the United States, and the exchange and retention of territories. France and Britain exchange various captured Carribean Territories, and Anglo-Spanish relations are returned to the status quo ante bellum

Spain is enraged at the lack of territorial acquisitions in the final settlement, but under pressure from the French and United States, is left with little choice be to accept.

19 October 1781.

Following the Siege of Yorktown, General Charles Cornwallis surrenders to General George Washington at Yorktown, Virginia, ending the armed struggle of the American Revolution.

1783.

The Peace of Paris. Various treaties are signed between Great Britain and the United States, France, Spain and their allies.

Key points include the confirmation of the United States, and the exchange and retention of territories. France and Britain exchange various captured Carribean Territories, and Anglo-Spanish relations are returned to the status quo ante bellum

Spain is enraged at the lack of territorial acquisitions in the final settlement, but under pressure from the French and United States, is left with little choice be to accept.

1783-1793.

In the short space of a decade, taking advantage of the `St Augustine Proclamation` and the `King Georges Proclamation`, guarunteeing land and freedom for anyone who makes the journey and pledges themselves to the British crown, approximately 200-300 thousand `loyalists` flee persecution and dispossession at the hands of the newly independent American colonies.

Approximately 80 000, mainly from the northern states, flee directly to Canada (particularly Newfoundland and Nova Scotia), with an estimated 30 000 more eventually finding their way to Canada via way of Florida from the southern colonies*. In excess of 200 000 southern Loyalists, plus Creeks disposessed by the expanding State of Georgia and many slaves freed by the British government during the war, relocate to British Florida.

Most settle in West Florida and northern East Florida, as the climate is broadly similar to the climates of Georgia, The Carolinas and Virginia, from whence most of the settlers hail.

During this period, the foundations are laid for many cities that will one day go on to become some of the dominant cities of British Florida.

*Give Canada a slightly increased population-after all, people didnt necessarily stay where they settled, but took the oportunity to get out, THEN collect themselves and make final plans-it follows that if the more loyalist portion of the US, the south, has more opportunity to relocate via the more convenient Florida, then more loyalists will eventially trickle through to Canada via Florida

21 August 1791

The slaves of Saint Domingue (Haiti) rise in revolt and plunge the colony into civil war.

Within the next ten days, slaves have taken control of the entire Northern Province of the colony in an unprecedented slave revolt. Whites keep control of only a few isolated, fortified camps. The slaves seek revenge on their masters through "pillage, rape, torture, mutilation, and death".

Because the plantation owners have long feared such a revolt, they are well armed and prepared to defend themselves. Nonetheless, within weeks, the number of slaves who joined the revolt reached some 100,000.

Within the next two months, as the violence escalates, the slaves kill 4,000 whites and burned or destroyed 180 sugar plantations and hundreds of coffee and indigo plantations.

1792

Slaves controlled a third of the colony of Saint Domingue. The success of the slave rebellion causes the newly elected Legislative Assembly in France to realize it is facing an ominous situation.

To protect France's economic interests, the Assembly grants civil and political rights to free men of color in the colonies in March 1792.

Countries throughout Europe as well as the United States are shocked by the decision, but the Assembly determines to stop the revolt.

Apart from granting rights to the free people of color, the Assembly dispatched 6,000 French soldiers to the island.

1793

Great Britain joins the War of the First Coalition, starting almost 20 years of war against Revolutionary and Napoleonic France.

White planters in Saint Domingue make agreements with Great Britain to declare British sovereignty over the islands.

Spain, who controlled the rest of the island of Hispaniola, would also join the conflict and fight with Great Britain against France. The Spanish forces invaded Saint Domingue and were joined by the slave forces.

For most of the conflict, the British and Spanish supplied the rebels with food, ammunition, arms, medicine, naval support, and military advisors. By August 1793, there were only 3,500 French soldiers on the island. To prevent military disaster, the French commissioner Sonthonax freed the slaves in his jurisdiction.

October 27, 1795,

`Pinkneys Treaty` gives American merchants "right of deposit" in New Orleans, granting them use of the port to store goods for export. Americans used this right to transport products such as flour, tobacco, pork, bacon, lard, feathers, cider, butter, and cheese.

The treaty also recognized American rights to navigate the entire Mississippi River, which had become vital to the growing trade of the western territories.

1798

Spain revokes this treaty, prohibiting American use of New Orleans

Late 1790s.

Saint Domingue comes under increasing control of former slave Toussaint L'Ouverture. This forces a gradual increase in French military involvement in the city


1800

Napoleon Bonaparte gains Louisiana for French ownership from Spain under the Treaty of San Ildefonso. But the treaty was kept secret. Louisiana remained nominally under Spanish administration if not ownership

1801

Spanish Governor Don Juan Manuel de Salcedo takes over from the Marquess of Casa Calvo, and restores the right to deposit goods from the United States

L'Ouverture issues a constitution for Saint-Domingue which provided for autonomy and decreed that he would be governor-for-life, calling for black autonomy and a sovereign black state.

In response, Napoleon Bonaparte dispatches a large expeditionary force of French soldiers and warships to the island, led by Bonaparte's brother-in-law Charles Leclerc, to restore French rule. They were under secret instructions to restore slavery, at least in the formerly Spanish-held part of the island.

The numerous French soldiers were accompanied by mulatto troops led by Alexandre Pétion and André Rigaud, mulatto leaders who had been defeated by Toussaint three years earlier. During the struggles, some of Toussaint's closest allies, including Jean-Jacques Dessalines, defected to Leclerc.

Captured, L'Ouverture was promised his freedom if he agreed to integrate his remaining troops into the French army. L'Ouverture agreed to this in May 1802. He was later deceived, seized by the French and shipped to France. In short order, he died.


1802

British agents implanted in the colonial government of Louisiana find out about the Treaty of San Ildefonso. News is sent to London and the Floridas, and an invasion is ordered. Planning commences...

James Monroe and Robert R. Livingston travel to Paris to negotiate the purchase of New Orleans and its environs

In Saint Domingue, for a few months, the island is peaceable under Napoleonic rule. But when it became apparent that the French intended to re-establish slavery black cultivators revolt. Increasiing French involvement draws further French forces away from New Orleans, and the ravages of yellow fever reduce French military presence in the region to a shadow of its European equivalent.

March 25 1802

British and French negotiators sign a treaty establishing peace in the long running war between Britain, and its allies, and Revolutionary/Napoleonic France.

The so called Peace of Amiens terms were as follows.

 The restoration of prisoners and hostages.
 The United Kingdom to return the Cape Colony to the Batavian Republic.
 The UK to return most of its captured Dutch West Indian islands to the Batavian Republic.
 The UK to withdraw its forces from Egypt.
 The ceding to the UK of Trinidad and Ceylon.
 France to withdraw its forces from the Papal States and the Kingdom of Naples.
 The borders of French Guiana to be fixed.
 Malta, Gozo, and Comino to be restored to the Hospitallers and to be declared neutral, although the islands remained under the British Empire.
 The island of Minorca be returned to Spain.
 The House of Orange-Nassau was to be compensated for its losses in the Netherlands.

Discontent with the seemingly generous terms accorded the French puts the treaty under strain almost immediately

Tuesday April 26th 1803.

Dispatches from London indicate that war is expected to break out again with France within months. Unless word to the contrary is received in the interim, April 26th is chosen as the date for the long planned occupation of New Orleans to commence.

No additional instructions are received from London, and so, an invasion force of 8000 British forces embark from Pensacola to capture New Orleans as part of the ongoing hostilities with Napoleonic France


Saturday, April 30, 1803,

The Louisiana Purchase Treaty is signed by Robert Livingston, James Monroe, and Barbé Marbois in Paris. The treaty includes the entirety of the Louisiana territory, much to the surprise of the negotiators. Diplomatic couriers are immediately dispatched to Washington

Monday 1st May 1803-29th May 1803,

British forces arrive at the port of New Orleans and encounter a much reduced French garrison. After a month long siege, French forces surrender to the British.

May 17th 1803.

War is officially re declared between Britain and France. News of the pre emptive British strike reaches Paris, London and Washington, inflaming opinion particularly in Paris and Washington

June 1803.

News of the fall of, and purchase of New Orleans ( and the Louisiana territory) reach president Jefferson.

July 1803.

Jefferson announces the purchase of the territory. Heavy criticism at the allegedly unconstitutional nature of the purchase is muted by the febrile, nationalistic reaction to what it termed the `theft of New Orleans`

November 1803

The last battle of the Haitian Revolution, the Battle of Vertières, occurres on 18 November 1803, near Cap-Haïtien. It is fought between Haitian rebels led by Jean-Jacques Dessalines and the French colonial army under the Viscount of Rochambeau.

January 1, 1804,

The Haitian rebels are victorious and, from the city of Gonaïves, Dessalines officially declares the former colony's independence, renaming it "Haiti" after the indigenous Arawak name.

France has now lost the primary strategic and economic heart of its Carribean empire, and a vital support for any chance of retaking New Orleans

The war of 1809*

The War of 1809 was a 32-month military conflict between the United States and the British Empire and their Indian allies which resulted in no territorial change between the Empire and the US, but a resolution of many issues which remained from the American War of Independence.

The United States declared war in 1809 for several reasons,

1. trade restrictions brought about by Britain's continuing war with France,

2. the impressment of American merchant sailors into the Royal Navy,

3. British support of American Indian tribes against American expansion,

4. US anger over the British occupation of New Orleans in 1803-a port the United States viewed as its legitimate property following the Louisiana Purchase of the same year

5. outrage over insults to national honor after humiliations on the high seas, and possible American interest in annexing Canada and Florida

The war was fought in three principal theatres. Firstly, at sea, warships and privateers of both sides attacked each other's merchant ships, while the British blockaded the Atlantic coast of the U.S. and mounted large-scale raids in the later stages of the war. Secondly, both land and naval battles were fought on the American-Floridian frontier, and to a lesser extent, the US-Canadian border.

The American South and Gulf Coast also saw major land battles in which the American forces defeated major incursions by Britain, and Britain's Indian allies from Florida, and were in turn repulsed by a British invasion force at New Orleans. And Georgetown in north Eastern Florida. Both sides invaded each other's territory, but these invasions were unsuccessful or temporary.. At the end of the war, both sides occupied parts of the other's land, but these areas were restored by the Treaty of Ghent.

With the majority of its army and naval forces tied down in Europe fighting the Napoleonic Wars until 1814, the British at first used a defensive strategy, repelling multiple American invasions of the provinces of Upper and Lower Canada., and East and West Florida. However, the Americans gained control over Lake Erie in 1812, seized parts of western Ontario, and ended the prospect of an Indian confederacy and an independent Indian state in the Midwest under British sponsorship.

In September 1810, a British force invaded and occupied eastern Maine, which they would hold for the duration of the war.

In the Southwest, the armies of General Andrew Jackson were destroyed by the combined military strength of the Creek nation, British regulars and Floridian loyalist militas at the Battle of Horseshoe Bend in 1811.

With the defeat of Andrew Jacksons second Floridian invasion on April 6 1812, the British adopted a more aggressive strategy, sending in three large invasion armies. The British victory at the Battle of Bladensburg in August 1812 allowed them to capture and burn Washington, D.C. American victories in September 1812 and January 1813 repulsed all three British invasions in New York, Baltimore

In the United States, victories at the Battle of New York in 1812 and in the Battle of Baltimore of 1812 produced a short lived sense of euphoria over a "second war of independence" against Britain.

Peace however, following shortly after the final major battle of the war, at New Orleans in May 1812 brought an "Era of bad Feelings" to the U.S. in which partisan animosity markedly increased as sectional opposition to the entire war, discontent from the outnumbered southern slave lobby and opposition to one of the causes of the war, the Louisiana Purchase, increased. At the same time, amongst many western states, a militant expansionist nationalism emerged, determined to spread the infant American republic "From sea to sea", to compensate for the lack of territorial acquisition during the war. Academics also credit this with the relatively slow rate of US expansion across the continent-following the US-Mexican war of the 1840s, the US gained sovereignty of contiguous territory extending to the Pacific Ocean, however factional politics prevented widespread settlement of the territory was prohibited until the late 1850s, following the southern Slaver Revolt and the abolition of slavery, when the organisation of western states and territories and allocation of settlement rights commenced unopposed.

Canada and Florida also emerged from the war with a heightened sense of national feeling and solidarity, as they celebrated its defeat of multiple invasions. Battles such as the Battle of Queenston Heights and the Battle of Crysler's Farm became iconic for English-speaking Canadians, whereas in Florida, the Battles of Georgetown, New Orleans and Horseshoe Bend are viewed as seminal events in unifying the previously dispirate community of Loyalists, freed slaves and `Indians` into a fervently anglophile, `Floridian` community.

Key aspects of the final peace settlement include

1. The British retention of New Orleans, complete with British financial compensation to the United States government for a percieved `theft` of the city from the Louisiana Purchase area.

2. Guaruntees of access to the port of New Orleans, in perpetuity, for American merchants.

3. An end to British impressment of Americans .

4. British support of Tecumshehs indian confederacy is to end, and the US government aid the British in relocation of the population to Canada and Florida. Almost 40 000 native Americans would be relocated, primarilly to Canada, but also to Florida (the controversial `betrayal clause` in which many of the native american communities currently living in the US states of Ohio and Michigan criticise the British government for sacrificing their chances of an independent state for the sake of political expediency and good relations with the Americans)

5. Recognition of British supremacy over the `Creek Nation`, wherein the US abandons claims to the areas immediately north of West Florida-the areas of the current `Creek Nation` territory of modern day Florida..

In Canada, especially Ontario,and across the Florida's memory of the war retains a national significance, as the invasions were largely perceived by the population of the former British North America as an annexation attempt by the United States. In Canada and Florida, numerous ceremonies took place in 2009 to remember the war, offer historical lessons and celebrate 200 years of peace between Canada, Florida and the United States.

*TTL war of 1812

Battle of New Orleans

The Battle of New Orleans took place on May 8, 1812 and was the final major battle of the War of 1809. British forces defeated an invading American Army intent on seizing New Orleans and adding it to the vast territory the United States had acquired with the Louisiana Purchase.

The Treaty of Ghent, having been signed on April 24, 1812, was ratified by the Prince Regent on May 30, 1812 and the United States Senate on February 16, 1813. Hostilities continued until late May when official dispatches announcing the peace reached the combatants in Louisiana, finally putting an end to the war.

The Battle of New Orleans is widely regarded as the greatest British land victory of the war.

The approximate boundaries of British Florida

And with that, i run out of steam. Feel free to add to this TL

Thoughts? Suggestions?

Changes things a lot in the US.

This cuts the heart out of the slaveholding area, puts most of the remaining slave states in close proximity to free soil after 1833. Not so much butterflies as albatrosses!

I very much like the sounds of this timeline. I don't know a lot about North American history but this certainly looks like it could shake down the United States expansion westward. I think the influence of the. British in Florida could lead to a powerhouse that could take on most of the Caribbean. On the notion of the Caribbean, I wonder if the British Florida would become "Caribbean" like, decentralised, somewhat overpopulated, and ruled by numerous bad leaderships, or it could become "North American" like and become focused on centralisation, trade and population boom from immigration.

How much of that area is prime cotton-producing territory?

Also, the US is going to want to wipe that off the map, bad, especially if the area is highly profitable as opposed to malarial swamps, so there's going to need to be a strong bulwark of Loyalist troops prepared to defend the place. In fact during the alt-War of 1812 I'd expect most of the US's offensive strength to be directed at alt-Florida rather than Canada.

Sucrose said:

How much of that area is prime cotton-producing territory?

Also, the US is going to want to wipe that off the map, bad, especially if the area is highly profitable as opposed to malarial swamps, so there's going to need to be a strong bulwark of Loyalist troops prepared to defend the place. In fact during the alt-War of 1812 I'd expect most of the US's offensive strength to be directed at alt-Florida rather than Canada.

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Northern Florida is good for Cotton, but even better for that favourate British crop, Tea

Would Floridian settlers "naturally" expand into Texas and create similar movements, or would the British have an interest in maintaing Mexican or perhaps separatist Tejano/California territorial integrity vis-à-vis the U.S.?

Essam said:

Would Floridian settlers "naturally" expand into Texas and create similar movements, or would the British have an interest in maintaing Mexican or perhaps separatist Tejano/California territorial integrity vis-à-vis the U.S.?

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yes i am a little suprised that Britain did not assist mexico to remain in control of the northern terrirtories and i would have expected britain or canada to assert control over oregon if the USA is weaker. Perhaps taking advantage of the Civil war, or failing that securing Alaska, and/or Hawaii.

I'm loving this. It is basically The Dominion of Southern America "light".

I'll try to add something to it if inspiration comes. Reckon TTL could also have an independent Texas, seeing how the British/Floridians might want to keep the US out of the gulf.

It is an interesting premise, but (with respect) there are a couple of issues:

libbrit said:

19 October 1781.

Following the Siege of Yorktown, General Charles Cornwallis surrenders to General George Washington at Yorktown, Virginia, ending the armed struggle of the American Revolution.

1783.

The Peace of Paris. Various treaties are signed between Great Britain and the United States, France, Spain and their allies.

Key points include the confirmation of the United States, and the exchange and retention of territories. France and Britain exchange various captured Carribean Territories, and Anglo-Spanish relations are returned to the status quo ante bellum

Spain is enraged at the lack of territorial acquisitions in the final settlement, but under pressure from the French and United States, is left with little choice be to accept.

1783-1793.

In the short space of a decade, taking advantage of the `St Augustine Proclamation` and the `King Georges Proclamation`, guarunteeing land and freedom for anyone who makes the journey and pledges themselves to the British crown, approximately 200-300 thousand `loyalists` flee persecution and dispossession at the hands of the newly independent American colonies.

Approximately 80 000, mainly from the northern states, flee directly to Canada (particularly Newfoundland and Nova Scotia), with an estimated 30 000 more eventually finding their way to Canada via way of Florida from the southern colonies*. In excess of 200 000 southern Loyalists, plus Creeks disposessed by the expanding State of Georgia and many slaves freed by the British government during the war, relocate to British Florida.

Most settle in West Florida and northern East Florida, as the climate is broadly similar to the climates of Georgia, The Carolinas and Virginia, from whence most of the settlers hail.

During this period, the foundations are laid for many cities that will one day go on to become some of the dominant cities of British Florida.

*Give Canada a slightly increased population-after all, people didnt necessarily stay where they settled, but took the oportunity to get out, THEN collect themselves and make final plans-it follows that if the more loyalist portion of the US, the south, has more opportunity to relocate via the more convenient Florida, then more loyalists will eventially trickle through to Canada via Florida

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It is an interesting premise, but (with respect) there are a couple of issues:

First, the most recent in-depth study I've seen is Maya Jasanoff's 2012 Liberty's Exiles: American Loyalists in the Revolutionary World, which estimates the total number of Loyalist emigres (to British North America, Britain, and Florida and the Caribbean) at 60,000, including at least 8,000 free blacks. In addition, 15,000 enslaved people were taken by their owners, with - of course - little agency in the decision.

see: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/01/b...les-by-maya-jasanoff.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Abolition in the British Empire, of course, did not occur until 1833, and there were legal exceptions until 1843; Jamaica, as an example of a British Western Hemisphere colony where slavery was entrenched in the economy, passed abolition in 1834, and required "apprenticeship" until 1838. And Jamaica, remember, saw rebellions by the enslaved in 1831-32, and incidents like Morant Bay as late as 1865.

Second, the Floridas (east and west) in the Eighteenth century (and much of the Nineteenth, for that matter) had a very small "settled" population; since much of the peninsula was tropical marshland, there was very little Western/European/American (take your pick) settlement there. The population of Florida (the state) did not hit 200,000 until after 1870. In 1830, first US census, the population was less than 35,000.

So your population of 200,000 loyalist emigres is - historically, at least - almost three times the entire loyalist emigre population.

Beyond that, as noble as the British emancipation of former slaves in the Eighteenth and Nineteenth centuries was, there was a color line that remained in full force for much of the period, and the type of "creole/mestizo" culture found in some of the former Spanish colonies in the wake of independence was not really replicated in British colonies in the Eighteenth and Nineteeth centuries; overall, the British policy toward "white" non-"British" populations in this era was assimilation (as witness the history of the French-Canadians and/or the Metis), and the realities of British policy toward non-white loyalists can presumably be demonstrated - at least partly - by the emigration of loyalist freedmen of African ancestry from the Maritimes colonies of British North America to Sierra Leone.

So as tantalizing as a British Florida in the 1780s might be, I'd expect it would look a lot more like Jamaica and the rest of the British West Indies, in terms of its demographics and politics, than anywhere else, and would face the same issues found in the British West Indian colonies that led to incidents like Morant Bay, as late as the 1860s, where some 800 people were killed or executed by the British army and colonial militias.

Best,

libbrit said:

And with that, i run out of steam. Feel free to add to this TL

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I had a similar idea with Washington winnign at Brandywine - or at least tying - and then Germantown resulting in the British marching back and getting slaughtered in New Yersey during the march. Not a lot of changes need done except a possibly earlier Constitution but if it starts, say, 1785 as the Presidents' terms, and then Adams serves 2 terms, we're right on pace. So, anyway, let me add my ideas as it could be (it was taken out and then put back in the next day as it was)

And, it helps solve TFSmith's population concern, too!

1780s

Concern over the British being so close to the U.S. in the South, and the number of slaves escaping as it was, leads to some Southern leaders feeling more pressure to cling to the North. Northern states use that to push harder for anti-slavery stuff in the Constitution.

The 3/5 Compromise still happens, but one thing they do manage to keep out is the Fugitive Slave Clause. Crying States' Rights, they claim that the states should not be forced to surrender escaped slaves.

Some of the controversy leads to some consideration of South Carolina and Georgia that they might form their own country, but Florida is too close. Instead, thousands of men move there over the next decade, reluctantly, with their slaves., hoping the British territory of Florida will allow them freedom against "Northern oppression."

jycee said:

I'm loving this. It is basically The Dominion of Southern America "light".

I'll try to add something to it if inspiration comes. Reckon TTL could also have an independent Texas, seeing how the British/Floridians might want to keep the US out of the gulf.

Click to expand...

I agree, especially since the majority of the Louisiana Purchase is still American (and thus, a major entryway into Texas by Southron Americans just as much as Floridians...possibly resulting in a DSA-esque origin of Texas without it being annexed by anybody else). And even that sort of scenario doesn't inherently cross American expansionism, as long as they get A) San Francisco/Monterey, B) Seattle/American Columbia, or both.

Also, I suspect the Southeastern states will be seen as the "true south" in the USA whereas the more western elements not part of Florida may be more Free-soiler (at least, relatively so compared to VA+NC/SC+GA), and more prone to Abolitionist influence without such a large political proponent of slavery. Of course, this might not be the case if the bulk of OTL Louisiana and Arkansas ends up like OTL, but then again nobody said Texas couldn't take their "cut" of Louisiana west of the Red River (or even if just the "Neutral Ground") if/when their independence movement comes about...I guess I just like the idea of a string of Sun Belt states free of both the USA and Mexico to "spice things up" .