Alternate Kaiserliche Marine
- Thread starter abc123
- Start date
Tyr Anazasi
Banned
The problem is, that the British started the race by some remarks in the Boer war, like "If the Jerries make problems, we'll just blockade their coasts". Furthermore, Germany needed a fleet at least as strong as the Russian and French fleets to defend her sea lanes in case of war.
That helps a lot. When you openly give your support to a country's enemies, you give good reason to make them see your shipbuilding program as threatening. Germany could have been so much more tactful in its diplomacy.
Germany's large fleet antagonized Britain, but its actions in the years leading up to WWI did so too. Wilhelm II was often very tactless. Were he not Kaiser, I strongly doubt Germany's fleet would have grown to the size it did OTL and would instead reflect more pragmatic thinking in line with Germany's actual strategic needs in a war with France and Russia.
Driftless
Donor
I think it would require a different Kaiser than Wihelm II. He seemed to be internally driven to show of the Reich power in every venue. If he didn't agitate during the Boer War, he probably doubles down on the Moroccan crisis of 1905/06. It's an oversimplification, but he wanted Germany (and himself) seen to be second to none.
Perhaps if his father Frederick III lived longer, you might have seen a different form for the Navy. Perhaps a push for a smaller number of high quality battleships, with comparatively short legs, and a healthy number of high quality cruisers to cover Germans colonies and other far away interests. Other than that, Frederick might be more inclined to use diplomacy, or the big stick of the German Army in Europe. A big enough and capable enough Navy to keep the Russians at bay on their end of the Baltic, but not enough to seriously poke the Lion across the North Sea. I think the French Navy would have been a distant second tier of concern compared to the abilities of the French Army.
Perhaps if his father Frederick III lived longer, you might have seen a different form for the Navy. Perhaps a push for a smaller number of high quality battleships, with comparatively short legs, and a healthy number of high quality cruisers to cover Germans colonies and other far away interests. Other than that, Frederick might be more inclined to use diplomacy, or the big stick of the German Army in Europe. A big enough and capable enough Navy to keep the Russians at bay on their end of the Baltic, but not enough to seriously poke the Lion across the North Sea. I think the French Navy would have been a distant second tier of concern compared to the abilities of the French Army.
Of course this does have a strong measure of mutual feedback. Within 3 years of the end of the Boer War, the British were openly 'supporting' France, so any German buildup is then a natural response to the British shipbuilding being a massive threat
Sorry, but using irregular forces, civilians even, is not the "good tone" of inter country relations. The Empire "officialy" did not have anything to do with those brigands or am I in error?
Because if they did it would be state terrorism. At least now. How it would be called then?
So allways harping on bad German diplomacy and saberratteling gets old fast in the face of British wrong...
I'm not following you. The Germans weren't reckless enough to actively support the Boers but any sort of statement of solidarity with a group fighting Britain is a tacit statement of hostility toward the latter. While the Dutch view is well justified by their strong connection, it was obvious any German sympathy for the Boers was primarily just Schadenfreude at the British Empire's struggle, not because they actually had anything to gain from Boer independence. That may not have been intended to be bad diplomacy but it was sure harmful for foreign relations.
But the point is, the Raid was done by Brigands, Marauders, whatever you may call them. Simply Bandits, so the Emperor praising the Boers that they dealt swiftly and desicifly with such outlaws is bad?
Sorry, but the British indignation is the part that is damaging in foraign relations. Simply because you are number one is no reason to be pissed if your neighbors stop some bandits, even if they are of your nation, and then even threaten a comming european power.
Yes a more tactful German approch may have be better, but the British were at fault here and played the injured...
Not to see it as the same later, but they also iggnored the customs of naval warfare later in WWI with their total blockade of continental Europe, blacklisting food and non war materials and destruction of undersea cables.
And your statement Chris is also approving of using state terrorism against your neighbors... bad form that for the formost power in the world atm.
Sorry, but the British indignation is the part that is damaging in foraign relations. Simply because you are number one is no reason to be pissed if your neighbors stop some bandits, even if they are of your nation, and then even threaten a comming european power.
Yes a more tactful German approch may have be better, but the British were at fault here and played the injured...
Not to see it as the same later, but they also iggnored the customs of naval warfare later in WWI with their total blockade of continental Europe, blacklisting food and non war materials and destruction of undersea cables.
And your statement Chris is also approving of using state terrorism against your neighbors... bad form that for the formost power in the world atm.
The point here really isn't about whether the British Empire's actions were morally right or not, it's about Germany's strategic position - a position which is greatly affected by relations with Britain.
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LordKalvert
Banned
The Kruger Telegram isn't going away unless the British and especially Lord Salisbury acted better after he came back into power in 1895. They managed to infuriate the Germans with Salisbury ridiculous behavior in not meeting with the Kaiser (an insult that is beyond belief) and the Salisbury's government treatment of Italy in Abyssinia-(Italy had requested the right to occupy Zeyla and Salisbury came back with the idiocy of Italy taking Albania- a move that would have ended the Triple Alliance). That the Americans were on the verge of war with Britain over Guyana helps the message along as well.
The British are convinced that the real purpose of the Kruger telegram was to see how far Russia and France would go in backing Germany against Britain.
The German government was strictly neutral in the Boer War- unlike public opinion which was openly backing the Boers. I don't see how your going to change this- people like the underdog normally and the British were a pretty arrogant lot at the time. In any event, German public opinion is no worse than France or Russia's
I know its an old POD, but Willy almost did not survive his birth. With Heinrich on the throne you might also get someone who LIKEs the navy, but his personality would be much more amiable.
But if he is the heir from an early age he might not join the navy, but like Willi OTL will be forced into the army.
All i read about Heinrich was that he was much more reasonable than Willi. HE might realize that Germany will never match Britain on the sea (at least not as long Britain stays a worldwide empire)
Even OTL HEinrich saw the use of subs and even planes as important for the navy.
Given his personality and a desire for a fleet somewhat weaker than Willi, Germany is overall in a better position.
As an additional boon his wife was the sister of the infamous ALIX - that might give him a better acess to the Czar and Russia.
But if he is the heir from an early age he might not join the navy, but like Willi OTL will be forced into the army.
All i read about Heinrich was that he was much more reasonable than Willi. HE might realize that Germany will never match Britain on the sea (at least not as long Britain stays a worldwide empire
)Even OTL HEinrich saw the use of subs and even planes as important for the navy.
Given his personality and a desire for a fleet somewhat weaker than Willi, Germany is overall in a better position.
As an additional boon his wife was the sister of the infamous ALIX - that might give him a better acess to the Czar and Russia.
Considering only modern ships, before WWI the French and Russians together had a naval force of 16 Dreadnoughts and 4 Battlecruisers. Parity alone requires the Kaiserliche Marine to have 20 modern ships, if not one or two or three more. However, IOTL the Germans had 28 modern ships (21 Dreadnoughts and 7 Battlecruisers), so realistically you'd only cut a maximum of 7 or 6 ships.
abc123
Banned
It doesn't have to be like that. Germans can start building battleships like OTL, but at more slower pace...
KM OTL commissioned 6 battleships between 1890 and 1900.
And then, 11 battleships between 1900 and 1905.
And further, 11 battleships between 1905 and 1910.
You can clearly see the difference.
If Germans had built say 6 BBs in 1900-1905 period and say another 6 in 1905- 1910 period, I doubt that the British would be so worried about them...
Yes, Germans built 8 coastal defence ships between 1890 and 1900, but I doubt that the RN would worry a lot because of them...
Which ships do you count?
IIRC the French had 4 BBS (Courbet) and no BC in summer 14 the Russians had no ships of the types mentioned comissioned.
I agree the french were fast approachuing 3 more (Bretagne) and the Russians 4 (Gangut) in the Baltics and 3 (Empress Marija) in the Black sea.
The Borodinos were not even launched.
Germany would need much less ships than the fleets combined as the Blacks sea fleet was effective bottled up as were the ships in the BAltics.
Germany would never have to face all French Russian ships at once, so they could concentrate on the "larger/more dangerous fleet"
That is probably the French one as it could - in theory - used for blockading Germany.
That equals 8 ships - give a 50% advantage 12 ships of teh dreadnought type needed (but thats not much less than the Germans HAD (15BB + 4 BCs) in June 1914
OTOH Germany woudl not need all those ships if you count in their allies (nominally Italy 4BBs + 4 BCs and Austria 3 BBs)
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AFAIK the UK realized and recognized that the German Empire needed and was entitled to a navy, especially considering the hostility of France and Russia.
Probably by cutting the number of ship mentioned by machine3589, the pace used for the naval build up, and the make up of the navy; probably will all work to defuse the situation.
It doesn't mean the German Empire needs to take the UK into account right away; instead it should probably start with negotiations about a naval parity agreement. So recognize that the RN has and is entitled to the largest navy in Europe, but the German Empire would be allowed (the room to build) the second navy in Europe.
IOTL various admiralties used expanding foreign navies to convince their parliaments to raise the budget of their navy.
ITTL that (IMHO) won't change.
Probably by cutting the number of ship mentioned by machine3589, the pace used for the naval build up, and the make up of the navy; probably will all work to defuse the situation.
It doesn't mean the German Empire needs to take the UK into account right away; instead it should probably start with negotiations about a naval parity agreement. So recognize that the RN has and is entitled to the largest navy in Europe, but the German Empire would be allowed (the room to build) the second navy in Europe.
IOTL various admiralties used expanding foreign navies to convince their parliaments to raise the budget of their navy.
ITTL that (IMHO) won't change.
Ah, that was quite poorly worded of me; I was counting all the ships ordered by WWI as well.
Germany would have to have enough ships to counter 4 Courbet-class, 3 Bretagne-class and 5 Normandie-class Dreadnoughts from the French side (Dantons were pre-Dreadnoughts, IIRC) as well as 4 Gangut-class and 4 Empress Marija-class Dreadnoughts, and the four Borodinos from Russia.
And I'm not sure that Germany would intenationally build less than the two powers combined regardless of the fact that France and Russia could never combine their fleets; there was a lot of prestige to be had in building battleships, and being the number two naval power in the world would probably sound like a whorthwile goal for any German Kaiser.
Assuming you're going with a primarily defensive fleet, can't the Germans can do a few things to make sure that they never have to face the combined forces of the entire French and Russian navies at once? Perhaps then parity can be effectively achieved at any given time, regardless of the actual disparity.