Last weekend I popped down to London for the meet up of various British board members and during the day used the London Underground several times. Now for some reason I've always just really liked the Tube and quite enjoy using it, having something of a soft spot for it. So the question is, is it possible for more cities other than London to develop similar rapid transport systems that could survive and flourish to modern times? I'm putting this in the Before 1900 forum as realistically they'd need to be done then for any chance of success due to the various factors affecting infrastructure projects in the UK, you haven't got a hope in modern times.
AHC: More Underground Railways in the UK?
- Thread starter Simon
- Start date
That's a good question. However, it's not surprising that London is the only one. London is, by far, the largest city in the British Isles, and its likely the richest, too. IIRC, the next biggest city (?Birmingham?) is only just a million.
A subway system tends to require a city of a couple of million or more, although that's not a hard and fast rule.
So. To get more subways, you probably need more large cities. Maybe Parliament moves to York, Birmingham or Manchester to escape bombing raids. The new capital would want a subway system for prestige purposes, if nothing else, and would grow fast anyway, due to all the government employees, etc.
I can't see that happening. Aside from the massive morale loss the people of London would suffer hearing that their government was fleeing the capital leaving them to their fate, even if this did happen Parliament would absolutely move back to London as soon as the war ended, and postulating about the UK building a whole new subway system in a different city during the Second World War is farfetched to say the very least.
For Birmingham Joseph Chamberlain went on a major civic improvement kick when he was mayor in the early 1870s, with the sub-surface cut and cover London Underground lines being built between 1863 and 1871 seems like the kind of idea he or his compatriots might latch on to. I've hit up Roem to see what he thinks since he did a Chamberlain-heavy timeline with Loaf.
Well Glasgow built their subway in 1896 when they had a population of about 550,000 people from the figures I've been able to dig up from a quick search.
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It seems like you would have more success with an earlier POD to create a less centralized English population...
Glasgow has a subway? Check. Oh. Hunh.
OK.
Also Oslo's metro system is partially a subway, and Oslo's less than 2/3 million.
So, given the right impetus, I guess theres a handful of cities that COULD build one.
With a PoD pre1900, it could be French dirigles doing the bombing in a 10 year long, low intensity war. Say. But you DO make a good point.
I don't think that having a city of millions of people is quite necessary. After all, there were many cities in the US which built heavy task systems that are much smaller than Birmingham, in their city limits at least, such as Boston, Baltimore, and Cleveland, all of which never quite reached a million people in the city proper.
Subways tend to require population density more than population, although large population centers are typically more dense. Given that American cities are typically much less dense than British cities, so I have no doubts that British cities other than London and Glasgow could build subways, and the Glaswegian subway could be much bigger than just an ever repeating loop around downtown. I'd guess that Birmingham, Manchester, and Liverpool at least could have built subways in the late nineteenth our early twentieth century.
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Hmmm...
According to Wiki, the list of British cities larger than 1/2 million is, in descending orders by 'nations':
England
Birmingham
Leeds
Sheffield
Bradford
Manchester
With Liverpool coming in at 466k
Scotland
Glasgow
with Edinburgh at 468k
Note London has a population of 7,375, so clearly they're not counting Metropolitan areas.
So, especially if you counted metro areas (and greater Manchester's pretty big), you could afford several subway/rapid transit systems (mostly above ground, I'm sure, except for city centres).
You could, in theory, have the surface portions of the Liverpool and Manchester; Manchester and Bradford/Leeds; Bradford/Leeds and Sheffield; connect. Especially if those northern cities got into civic rivalry, building metro systems and reaching out to the burbs.
Of course, if you did this, you'd HAVE to run a line to Doncaster, or Thande would get upset, and we wouldn't want THAT!
According to Wiki, the list of British cities larger than 1/2 million is, in descending orders by 'nations':
England
Birmingham
Leeds
Sheffield
Bradford
Manchester
With Liverpool coming in at 466k
Scotland
Glasgow
with Edinburgh at 468k
Note London has a population of 7,375, so clearly they're not counting Metropolitan areas.
So, especially if you counted metro areas (and greater Manchester's pretty big), you could afford several subway/rapid transit systems (mostly above ground, I'm sure, except for city centres).
You could, in theory, have the surface portions of the Liverpool and Manchester; Manchester and Bradford/Leeds; Bradford/Leeds and Sheffield; connect. Especially if those northern cities got into civic rivalry, building metro systems and reaching out to the burbs.
Of course, if you did this, you'd HAVE to run a line to Doncaster, or Thande would get upset, and we wouldn't want THAT!
I think there were discussions for a underground system in Manchester at one point, but we got the Metrolink Light Rail system instead. I suppose if you get investment in an underground rather than that it's possible for Manchester to have one.
Yeah, me too. My first thought on seeing this thread was slaves hiding in the basements of houses along the Channel, waiting for the midnight boats that would take them to freedom in France.
I don't know what the ground is like in Britain, but that plays a role too. The easier it is to dig huge holes in the earth, the cheaper that'll be, and the more likely to get a subway. As others have pointed out, population density is one aspect, which is also a political question, because then you're getting into urban planning and such - in short, a more transit-friendly and density-oriented political situation is going to help.
Subways are really expensive to built and to maintain. I could see trolley lines with short tunnel parts in the center of medium size cities in Britain as we have then in some German cities like Bielefeld.
In Moscow, if I remember right, construction of the metro was hurried during WW2, so that the stations could double as shelters during air raids, maybe something like that could lead to more tubes in the UK.
Berlin has a subway station that is also an atomic bomb proof shelter, at least in theory...
In Moscow, if I remember right, construction of the metro was hurried during WW2, so that the stations could double as shelters during air raids, maybe something like that could lead to more tubes in the UK.
Berlin has a subway station that is also an atomic bomb proof shelter, at least in theory...
Oh please, if you're going to use made up cities as proof to back up your arguments I think you might be better off in the Alien Space Bats and Other Magic forum.
Oh please, if you're going to use made up cities as proof to back up your arguments I think you might be better off in the Alien Space Bats and Other Magic forum.
I guess this just had to happenI just might go there and start a "WI:Bielefeld realy existed" threat.
Tunnelling methods preclude a Birmingham underground until the 1950's, by which time UK Government was trying to stop the Second City growing and encouraging investment out of it.
By the time you get to a point where you start thinking about such things again, it's all become very expensive and the centre has, ahem, other tunnels.
The most interesting Brum transport POD is to construct Grand Central in the 1960's instead of the Black Hole Hbf rebuild. Plus the Bordesley Curves and the Extension to the Harborne railway.
By the time you get to a point where you start thinking about such things again, it's all become very expensive and the centre has, ahem, other tunnels.
The most interesting Brum transport POD is to construct Grand Central in the 1960's instead of the Black Hole Hbf rebuild. Plus the Bordesley Curves and the Extension to the Harborne railway.
Well there is this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyne_and_Wear_Metro
The busiest parts of it are underground but most of it isn't. Dunno if it counts.
I'm sure other cities in the UK could do the same.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyne_and_Wear_Metro
The busiest parts of it are underground but most of it isn't. Dunno if it counts.
I'm sure other cities in the UK could do the same.