IOTL, Xiang Yu, leader of the state of Chu, ultimately lost the Chu-Han contention to the Han forces led by Liu Bang (later Emperor Han Gaozu). I don't know all the details of the war, but was there any way the Chu forces could have won? I'm thinking not dismissing Fan Zeng, or maybe staying with his army at the ravine where the Han army taunted them into a rash attack (sorry, forgot the name of the battle).
WI/AHC: Xiang Yu wins
- Thread starter Ravenclaw
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It would be interesting to have a "Chu dynasty" instead of a Han dynasty, but both states would have created a solidly "Chinese" dynasty from Chu province, so while there would probably be major deviations, those would probably be caused by unforeseeable butterflies. In any case, I wouldn't have the knowledge to try and find major differences between those elements of the province allied to Liu Bang and those to Xiang Yu; and the influence these would have on the development of the following dynasty.
The more pertinent question is how Xiang Yu managed to lose. He had everything going for him and if he had simply kept Liu Bang bottled up in Hanzhong, nothing would have happened. In a sense, Liu Bang was simply too irrelevant to care about and so while every other feudal lord fought each other, the Han were allowed to bide their time.
A Xiang Yu victory will have massive consequences for China. It's easy to forget that Xiang Yu wasn't so much a founder of a new dynasty but the restorer of an old order. After all, Xiang Yu was Chu nobility, and what he wanted, first and foremost, was the reinstatement of the old order that the centralized Qin had swept away. This was something that wasn't present in the peasant-born Liu Bang.
Xiang Yu made a big point about re-splitting China into vassal kingdoms, ruled mainly by royalty/high officials of the previous order. now obviously this didn't mean that Xiang Yu himself was going to give up the supreme power (and anybody who challenged him would suffer the consequences), but he certainly was more lenient about the land division than Liu Bang, who largely nominated kings who were allies or former subordinates. I can't imagine that a Chu Dynasty would have the tendency towards political centralization that the Han Dynasty would have.
Long story short, Xiang Yu's comprehensive victory would probably have led to a re-establishment of Zhou-style feudalism in China, only this time with the center of power migrating away from the Guanzhong region to the Jiangnan region (Chu). Political re-centralization efforts would be half-hearted at best and eventually power would leak back towards the local regions, which over time would become economically and culturally divergent from each other.
A Xiang Yu victory will have massive consequences for China. It's easy to forget that Xiang Yu wasn't so much a founder of a new dynasty but the restorer of an old order. After all, Xiang Yu was Chu nobility, and what he wanted, first and foremost, was the reinstatement of the old order that the centralized Qin had swept away. This was something that wasn't present in the peasant-born Liu Bang.
Xiang Yu made a big point about re-splitting China into vassal kingdoms, ruled mainly by royalty/high officials of the previous order. now obviously this didn't mean that Xiang Yu himself was going to give up the supreme power (and anybody who challenged him would suffer the consequences), but he certainly was more lenient about the land division than Liu Bang, who largely nominated kings who were allies or former subordinates. I can't imagine that a Chu Dynasty would have the tendency towards political centralization that the Han Dynasty would have.
Long story short, Xiang Yu's comprehensive victory would probably have led to a re-establishment of Zhou-style feudalism in China, only this time with the center of power migrating away from the Guanzhong region to the Jiangnan region (Chu). Political re-centralization efforts would be half-hearted at best and eventually power would leak back towards the local regions, which over time would become economically and culturally divergent from each other.
I think it's quite likely. Xiang Yu, as I've said, was more reactionary than revolutionary, seeking to restore the privileges of the Chu nobility (and, by extension, everybody else's) in an attempt to recreate the Zhou Empire.
Of course, you could argue that Xiang Yu's character was such that eventually he'd step over the line and consolidate too much power for his vassal-kings' liking - but that doesn't imply that somebody assumes Xiang Yu's place, and even then it doesn't imply that said somebody has to initiate OTL Liu Bang's process of centralization.
So yes, I think it's quite likely that a Xiang Yu victory PoD would result in the re-establishment of feudalism. In fact, one could even argue that any PoD in the 50-year period between the fall of the Qin and the Rebellion of the Seven Kingdoms in 154BC is likely to result in feudalism being re-established in China.
Zhou feudalism, whatever its faults, was basically the norm for over half a millennium, and was also the environment in which many of China's cultural and philosophical ideologies were formed. Conversely, the large-scale centralization of Qin lasted only 15 years and was responsible for the (attempted) destruction of many of said ideologies. Given this, it's actually quite impressive how the Han managed to centralize power and go against the seeming historical norm. But China would continue to alternate between feudalism and centralization for most of its history.
Yes.
If Han Xin (the best general of Liu Bang or of that era) at last chose to sell Liu Bang out it probably can be.
What do you mean by that? Abandoning Liu Bang after his embarrassing defeat at Pengcheng and declare himself the king of Qin?
From what I know, Han Xin had not conquered Qi by that point
I refer to the point that Han Xin demanded to be the King of Qi, Liu Bang was being trapped and Xiang Yu asked Han Xin to rebel against Liu bang. Just before the deceitful ceasefire of Liu bang with Xiang Yu.
Han Xin was also persuaded to rebel against Liu Bang by his own advisers, which he did not in OTL.