Chinese Japan

Other than the aborted Yuan expeditions, were there any times in history where China attempted to exercise direct rule over Japan, whether through conquest or some sort of dynastic arrangement (i.e. more than just a tributary relationship or purely nominal suzerainty)? If not, what would have been the best time for a Chinese dynasty to make such an attempt, and how successful would it have been? Could China have ever conquered and held all of Japan? And if so, how long could Chinese rule in Japan have been maintained? Is there a scenario where Japan could remain in China for so long that it comes to be seen as a region as integral to China as OTL Manchuria? And, would a Chinese Korea be a precondition or necessary corollary of a Chinese Japan?
Lot of questions, I know - feel free to answer whichever you want.
 
The closest is probably the Tang Dynasty,but even then it was a stretch.Japan intervened briefly during the Tang conquest of the Korean Peninsula,and were terrified of the Tang Dynasty invading after it's military forces were decisively defeated on the continent.Chances though are that the Tang Dynasty would have never been able to do that since the Tang Dynasty would have been hard-pressed to maintain control of Korea from rebels and attacks from Silla.
 
The closest is probably the Tang Dynasty,but even then it was a stretch.Japan intervened briefly during the Tang conquest of the Korean Peninsula,and were terrified of the Tang Dynasty invading after it's military forces were decisively defeated on the continent.Chances though are that the Tang Dynasty would have never been able to do that since the Tang Dynasty would have been hard-pressed to maintain control of Korea from rebels and attacks from Silla.

Huh, interesting. Which point in the dynasty did this happen? Was it before or after the clash with the Abbasids in 751?
 
You mean other than the obvious ones, where the Yuan dynasty under Kublai Khan tried to invade? They were Mongols, but they were also the ruling Chinese Dynasty.

Yeah, speaking of the Yuan expeditions, was it just a matter of bad luck/timing? Or were Mongol strategies/tactics ill-suited to naval warfare? Or was some other factor or factors behind the Yuan failure?
 

RousseauX

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I always liked the idea of a Ming conquest of Japan, and after the fall of the Ming enough refugees flee to it to allow a Ming general to cement himself as the shogun, with Chinese feudal lords alongside the Japanese ones.

You get a Chinese ruled, independent japan out of it, existing alongside of Manchu dominated mainland China.

One of my TL ideas has always being a larger, but fractured Sinosphere with 4-5 independent Chinese states, with different Chinese generals ruling over the Philippines, parts of SE Asia and Japan. But with northern China controlled by the Manchus and southern China under some Ming remnants. All of them claims some legitimacy to the variation of the mandate of heaven.
 
Yeah, speaking of the Yuan expeditions, was it just a matter of bad luck/timing? Or were Mongol strategies/tactics ill-suited to naval warfare? Or was some other factor or factors behind the Yuan failure?

I would say a combination of all three. The Mongols excel in land warfare, and expected to land ashore before using that experience to their advantage. Problem was, they had to rely on Chinese shipbuilders (who had more than enough reason to sabotage the ships for an early visit to Davy Jones' Locker), and mass production of river-capable ships rather than sea-worthy ships just to speed up the plan. Worse, they invaded amidst the typhoon season, which puts the army at serious risk of being marooned despite successfully landing on Kyushu the first time (and overwhelmed the tiny island garrisons around it). In essence, the problems just stacked up against the Yuan.
 
I always liked the idea of a Ming conquest of Japan, and after the fall of the Ming enough refugees flee to it to allow a Ming general to cement himself as the shogun, with Chinese feudal lords alongside the Japanese ones.

You get a Chinese ruled, independent japan out of it, existing alongside of Manchu dominated mainland China.

One of my TL ideas has always being a larger, but fractured Sinosphere with 4-5 independent Chinese states, with different Chinese generals ruling over the Philippines, parts of SE Asia and Japan. But with northern China controlled by the Manchus and southern China under some Ming remnants. All of them claims some legitimacy to the variation of the mandate of heaven.

If you wrote this timeline, I'd definitely read it ;)
 
I would say a combination of all three. The Mongols excel in land warfare, and expected to land ashore before using that experience to their advantage. Problem was, they had to rely on Chinese shipbuilders (who had more than enough reason to sabotage the ships for an early visit to Davy Jones' Locker), and mass production of river-capable ships rather than sea-worthy ships just to speed up the plan. Worse, they invaded amidst the typhoon season, which puts the army at serious risk of being marooned despite successfully landing on Kyushu the first time (and overwhelmed the tiny island garrisons around it). In essence, the problems just stacked up against the Yuan.

Kyushu! Every time I read in classes about these Mongol expeditions, I pictured them landing far up on Honshu, maybe just north of Niigata. Shows how crucial it is to provide maps in history textbooks :p
 
One could imagine a possible attempt at a Chinese conquest of Japan at any time where China wouldn't be hard-pressed by nomads and had somehow taken a naval turn. OTL these conditions were really only fulfilled under the Yuan Dynasty. That said, there are periods in China's history where naval aggression occurred, the Liu Song/Sui invasions of Champa being the prime example.

In terms of alt-hist scenarios, your best bet would be a more expansionist Song/Ming Dynasty that has somehow reached some political accommodation with the Mongols (maybe an extended heqin policy with a Mongol state that could control its underlings). Additionally, for this scenario to work you don't want China conquering the steppe like what Han, Tang or Qing did, since that shifts China towards a more continental focus.

Alternatively, China also has a history of 'filibustering' its neighbors, with various Chinese migrants or second/third-gen Chinese attempting to usurp political power in various Indochinese states (Taksin in Siam and the Ly (arguable)/Tran Dynasties in Vietnam). There's also 'roving armies' like Koxinga or Mao Wenlong whose power was enough to establish semi-independent polities of their own. So a successful Chinese invasion of Japan doesn't necessarily have to be done through state means.

In terms of actual naval ability, a sea-focused Chinese state really doesn't have too much trouble reaching Japan. The routes were already well-charted by the time of the Tang and with the development of the 'junk' sail during the Song it's not difficult for a Chinese fleet to reach Japan within a few days given favorable weather conditions.

In terms of conquering Japan - that's a bit more difficult. The logistics of provisioning such an army would be a great strain on Chinese finances (the Southern Song spent 90% of its income simply on maintaining a defensive navy), so it's a delicate balance between bringing enough troops to actually capture Japanese defences and not bringing so many troops as to bankrupt the state in the process. A large invasion force definitely requires Korea as a staging base: a smaller force can set off from Jeju or the Ryukyus, though Korean acquiescence in the adventure is probably required for any medium-term success.

Historically, the Yuan's 30,000-strong invasion force in 1274 proved insufficient to take even the 500-year-old defences at Hakata Bay, having made little progress while exhausting their own supplies of gunpowder in the process, the latter forcing the premature Mongol withdrawal.

It's quite possible that a conquered Japan could have been partly colonized by China Ireland-style, especially one that eventually develops very strong trade links with China and whose ports become Chinese exclaves, but it's less likely that any Chinese dynasty would actually desire the annexation of faraway, costly and rebellious Japanese land rather than just a simple admission of Chinese suzerainty by the Japanese tenno.
 
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Ming conquering Japan would require Zhu Yuanzhang not declaring that Ming will never conquer Japan.The man promised not to invade Japan and instructed his descendants to repeat his example.
 
Ming conquering Japan would require Zhu Yuanzhang not declaring that Ming will never conquer Japan.

To be fair, Zhu Yuanzhang also forbade eunuchs to participate in Ming court affairs and his descendants didn't particularly obey that order.
 
To be fair, Zhu Yuanzhang also forbade eunuchs to participate in Ming court affairs and his descendants didn't particularly obey that order.
Does it?The Chinese wiki page on it expressly said that the house law he's written strangely did not mention anything about forbidding eunuchs from participating in Ming Court affairs.
 
I always liked the idea of a Ming conquest of Japan, and after the fall of the Ming enough refugees flee to it to allow a Ming general to cement himself as the shogun, with Chinese feudal lords alongside the Japanese ones.

You get a Chinese ruled, independent japan out of it, existing alongside of Manchu dominated mainland China.

One of my TL ideas has always being a larger, but fractured Sinosphere with 4-5 independent Chinese states, with different Chinese generals ruling over the Philippines, parts of SE Asia and Japan. But with northern China controlled by the Manchus and southern China under some Ming remnants. All of them claims some legitimacy to the variation of the mandate of heaven.

This is a great idea for a TL. I'd read it.
 
I actually think a Chinese conquest of Japan would be more successful the farther back in time you go. A China that doesn't undergo decades of civil war between the end of the Han Dynasty and the beginning of the Sui-Tang era would be in a better position to expand into the rest of Korea and then continue onto Japan. That would be the easiest and most logical.

By the time the Tang comes around there are more pressing demands in terms of other states (Tibet, Nanzhao, Uighurs, various Turkic states), which continues on with Song (which had to deal with Liao, Jin, and Mongols). Ming would also be pretty late, first because the Mongols around, and second because Ming for much of its history was fairly weak.

Because of the distances and costs involved, Chinese conquest of Japan would be hard. I think that maybe an earlier technological advantage, such as an earlier Industrial Revolution in China, might help China in those regards.
 
I always liked the idea of a Ming conquest of Japan, and after the fall of the Ming enough refugees flee to it to allow a Ming general to cement himself as the shogun, with Chinese feudal lords alongside the Japanese ones.

You get a Chinese ruled, independent japan out of it, existing alongside of Manchu dominated mainland China.

The idea of Japan ruled by a foreign-derived dynasty is interesting. Strange that China was so often ruled by ethnic minorities but Japan was always ruled by ethnic Yamato.
 
The idea of Japan ruled by a foreign-derived dynasty is interesting. Strange that China was so often ruled by ethnic minorities but Japan was always ruled by ethnic Yamato.
Because it's dirt poor(compared to China) and they've got a sea between them and the nomads.
 
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