violent Jesus tl idea

ok ok so what if due to weird astronomical things or just a different upbringing, Jesus of Nazareth (who, for the sake of the idea exists, so don't argue it pls) is more violent and radical, a literal king of the Jews who starts a war with Herod in order to recreate the kingdom of Judah

when he fails he is deemed a martyr and due to his miracles being militarial instead of kinda novel, Christianity is seen as a direct successor to Judaism, and the majority of Jews believe he is the messiah instead of just a few

so this underground militant Christianity lasts until Rome collapses earlier and the Jews strike creating the Kingdom of Judah which later falls to stronger Egyptians

the Jews are pushed north and west and end up around the Baltic Sea, where they establish their kingdom again

thoughts on the idea?

Like any TL that messes with early Christianity, it creates an unrecognizable world (as it also surely butterflies Islam away). I loved your idea

First of all, this *Christian cult, if it's too much identified with Judaism, it probably won't find much following among the Romanized peoples. It's argued that Christianity was able to spread so much through the Roman Empire after Paul of Tarsus' work because it was not an exclusive religion like the Mystery Cults or "Cultural" religious identities.

If it's seen mainly as a Jewish fanatical cult, even worse, one that inspires subvertion against the established order of the Roman Empire, I doubt it gains the sympathy of Rome.

I'm puzzled by what you said "until Rome collapses earlier". I suppose you mean Rome will fall by the Crisis of the Third Century or something like that?

I'll get along your idea, though. Even then, I'm not sure if the Israelites had manpower or economy to maintain an independent kingdom in the wake of Rome. Perhaps Egypt, but more probably Persia will want the coast of the Mediterranean for themselves.

Cosmedian said:

ok ok so what if due to weird astronomical things or just a different upbringing, Jesus of Nazareth (who, for the sake of the idea exists, so don't argue it pls) is more violent and radical, a literal king of the Jews who starts a war with Herod in order to recreate the kingdom of Judah.

Click to expand...

Like this you mean ?

Instead of re-sewing that complex piece of patchwork, just find a way for this guy to succeed:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_(prophet)

One of the other people claiming to be the Messiah, and in the traditional imagining of it. Pretty much an ancient terrorist leader who had a plan to take over Israel by force. Problem was the Romans kicked his ass.

That's actually part of the reason why Jesus was so successful. By being a peaceful messiah, he didn't invoke the ire of the Roman Empire and managed to peacefully convert large numbers of people whilst technically fulfilling much of the Messiah's characteristics.

An earlier Simon Bar-Kokhba?

Thing is, the Roman Empire was at least as strong during Jesus` time than it was during Bar-Kokhba`s.

Thesaurus Rex said:

Instead of re-sewing that complex piece of patchwork, just find a way for this guy to succeed:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_(prophet)

One of the other people claiming to be the Messiah, and in the traditional imagining of it. Pretty much an ancient terrorist leader who had a plan to take over Israel by force. Problem was the Romans kicked his ass.

That's actually part of the reason why Jesus was so successful. By being a peaceful messiah, he didn't invoke the ire of the Roman Empire and managed to peacefully convert large numbers of people whilst technically fulfilling much of the Messiah's characteristics.

Click to expand...

Well, I agree that anything Jewish religious which is violent will be kicked in the ass by the Romans in the most brutal way.
Jesus Christ including.
And including all his followers and probably all his immediate family to be executed. which means no hope of spreading this Jewish sect's views in the future.

Russian said:

Well, I agree that anything Jewish religious which is violent will be kicked in the ass by the Romans in the most brutal way.
Jesus Christ including.
And including all his followers and probably all his immediate family to be executed. which means no hope of spreading this Jewish sect's views in the future.

Click to expand...

Indeed. There were LOTS of wannabe messiahs, with political/military agendas. They all failed. One more wouldn't make a difference.

Unless, of course, He had Divine Intervention on His side, in which case the whole scenario is a textbook example of ASB.

Dathi THorfinnsson said:

Indeed. There were LOTS of wannabe messiahs, with political/military agendas. They all failed. One more wouldn't make a difference.

Unless, of course, He had Divine Intervention on His side, in which case the whole scenario is a textbook example of ASB.

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so otl was asb?

Cosmedian said:

so otl was asb?

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Well, since ASB involves 'outside forces' (aka deus ex machina), and since I'd definitely say that Jesus was God, then yes.

However, in terms of probability of success, a new religious movement that is prepared to coexist with the world superpower has a much better chance of succeeding than one that requires Divine intervention to overthrow said power.

Historically/socio-politically, Jesus's OTL success (like e.g. Mohammed's) is entirely plausible. An overthrow of the Roman Empire by Zealots? that's astronomically improbable (hence ASB).

PS: I have no clue if you were serious, snarky, or sarcastic. I chose to respond as if you were serious.

Well, ignoring we don't even know if Jesus the person existed IOTL, or if he was a conglomerate of persons...

And ignoring the fact that if he DID exist IOTL, he wasn't exactly a popular prophet, because we have no writings about him from contemporaries of the time, and writings only start occurring several decades after his death. So he's not going to lead any kind of revolt with a chance of success, unless his "miracles" start massacring Roman armies...

And ignoring that up until Paul there wasn't really a coherent structure for Christianity, so any of Jesus' more violent works may just be edited out...

Your scenario is still completely ASB.

when he fails he is deemed a martyr and due to his miracles being militarial instead of kinda novel, Christianity is seen as a direct successor to Judaism, and the majority of Jews believe he is the messiah instead of just a few

Click to expand...

How does he lead this revolt? If it has God behind it, how does it fail? If it doesn't, why does it matter?

so this underground militant Christianity lasts until Rome collapses earlier and the Jews strike creating the Kingdom of Judah which later falls to stronger Egyptians

Click to expand...

*blinks*.

You do realize Roman control of Palestine persisted until it fell to the Persians and then the Arabs in the 7th century, right? And that the majority of people there were Christians (in this TL just Romans who aren't Jews)?

The Romans would break up the Jews as a group if they revolted like this. They sort of did OTL, and the Romans then made sure that they were never a threat again.

But I'll humor you and tweak the scenario a bit. Let's massacre some butterflies and assume the Jews participate even more in the last Persian-Roman war. Something happens like in The Mauricians, with Jews being massacred and forced to baptize, and they cooperate with the Persians to take Palestine for themselves. This happened to an extent IOTL anyways.

And then let's assume Rome loses that war and Judea comes into being as a puppet state for Persia. For a decade or two, it persists, Jewish identity is re-established, a whole ton of Romans get the bad end of genocide, etc. Instead of the Egyptians, the Arabs conquer Palestine.

the Jews are pushed north and west and end up around the Baltic Sea, where they establish their kingdom again

Click to expand...

What.

What?

How in the name of Roman-genociding Jesus would the Jews push North and West, across either the Caucasus or the Dardanells? They'd have to cross Anatolia or Armenia, controlled by a vengeful Rome that is probably cooperating with the Arabs and is more than a match for a bunch of nomadic Jews.

And Jews of this time aren't even nomadic! You'd need an ASB (/God) to intervene hundreds of thousands of times just for a large enough group of Jews to make it into Europe. Then they'd have to cross a bunch of actual nomads who are much better at fighting than them, avoid getting absorbed by the Slavs, and end up in the Baltic Sea?

I realize this is a no-effort post mostly made to troll, but I couldn't resist. When teleporting Jews who no doubt practice Jew Jitsu and are still somehow conquered show up, you know that you're gonna have a good time.

That's what I was looking at when I asked earlier if there was some way to reduce Roman influence in the Levant in that time period.

If you have an independent Judea under Herod/the Hasmoneans/whoever, with some combination of Ptolemies/Macedonians/Greeks/Armenians /Parthians/Romans all vying for control of the eastern Med you have space for Jesus the Conqueror.

Say he leads his followers to Jerusalem and tries to set up as the New Messiah, but gets chased out by whichever independent Jewish King, and flees back to Galilee- just as, say, Egypt attacks. With the main Judean forces occupied, he can set up a little independent kingdom in Galilee (aided by an organizational genius named Saul who turns out to be a great general, he defeats the victorious but exhausted Judean army.

With the death of the Messiah, Saul announces the new religion is open to all, and sets off toppling the exhausted powers of the Near East, just like a certain later religious reformer.