WI: USA/Allies/Himmler-Lead Germany vs USSR | Operation Unthinkable or Poosible?

GlobalHumanism · Apr 16, 2015

Let's start with a map!

In the spring of 1945 the Nazis where at the edge of defeat. Hitler was about to commit suicide and the Russians where deep into the battle of berlin.

IOTL, Himmler, who was stationed outside of the city in the west, attempted a diplomatic coup by offering peace to the Allies in the west as precursor to an alliance to stop the invading Soviets. Hitler, prior to his death immediately declared Himmler a traitor, stripped him of his titles and declared him to be arrested on sight. The allies, who never considered the possibility of this type of arrangement, captured Himmler as he tried to flee the continent with a fake passport.

My question is this:

What if the allies actually considered and ultimately agreed with Himmler's offer as precursor to do exactly what he, General Patton, and many other military officers had begged the US to do...Attack and Invade the Soviet Union for the purpose of establishing pre-1939 borders.

What are the potentials for success? what would be the tactics?

And for the armchair generals on the forum (you know who you are) please share you thoughts on HOW a successful campaign could be carried out.

EDIT: Possible* Crap!

David Floyd · Apr 16, 2015

Presumably we are ignoring all political and social concerns making this impossible?

Napoleon IV · Apr 16, 2015

The Allies would never accept this. Except for Patton nobody seriously considered attacking the Soviet Union after Germany's defeat (Operation Unthinkable was a contingency plan that was never going to be enacted). No one wanted another war, in fact when the Allies occupied parts of Germany that the Soviet Union had claimed at Yalta they let the Soviets move in.

And no one will work with Himmler. They have already discovered the death camps and the idea of working with Himmler would have sickened the Allied leaders beyond belief.

M. Adolphe Thiers · Apr 16, 2015

Himmler has too much blood on his hands, he has to go. Maybe if it was somebody neutral like Rommel, Beck, or Goerdeler. Even then probably not. Also, the soldiers probably wouldn't fight anyway. There were demobilization riots OTL, things would be worse if war continued after 1945. Something would have to convince the masses that the Soviets had to be stopped.

ObssesedNuker · Apr 16, 2015

For some reason, I am reminded of a line from (of all places) the Destroy All Humans! 2 intro. It goes like this:

(Russian Accent) "And the American people are not noticing?!"
*several seconds of laughter*

So yeah, signing a peace treaty with Himmler-lead Germany alone is going to create a giant political crisis within the Britain and the United States. Betraying the Soviet Union to fight them alongside Nazi Germany? That is going to be a political shitstorm of epic proportions.

Carl Schwamberger · Apr 16, 2015

How many of these Op Unthinkable threads have been started here in the past year?

jmc247 · Apr 16, 2015

Himmler was viewed as the guy masterminding the mass killings of civilians that word was starting to get out about in 1943 through 1945 in the press. Hitler was a hated figure, but Himmler was the guy the Western nations believed was organizing the mass killing of civilians that the regime was doing.

This Time magazine cover represented the popular option of Himmler.

By 1945 after the SS purged the German Army liquidating many of the generals and marshals the West knew and Hitler had become a demented recluse hiding in his bunker the public view in the West was that Himmler and the SS had basically taken charge of Germany.

TickTock The Witch's Dead · Apr 16, 2015

Just use nukes.

ObssesedNuker · Apr 16, 2015

Carl Schwamberger said:
How many of these Op Unthinkable threads have been started here in the past year?

It's a semi-popular subject.

GlobalHumanism · Apr 17, 2015

jmc247 said:
Himmler was viewed as the guy masterminding the mass killings of civilians that word was starting to get out about in 1943 through 1945 in the press. Hitler was a hated figure, but Himmler was the guy the Western nations believed was organizing the mass killing of civilians that the regime was doing.

This Time magazine cover represented the popular option of Himmler.

By 1945 after the SS purged the German Army liquidating many of the generals and marshals the West knew and Hitler had become a demented recluse hiding in his bunker the public view in the West was that Himmler and the SS had basically taken charge of Germany.

I mean, the allies knew about the Gulags and the Purges and extrajudicial killings in soviet occupied poland and still sent billions in lend-lease to uncle Joe.

Why would the allying with the nazis to preserve the balance of power in continental Europe be any different?

GlobalHumanism · Apr 17, 2015

M. Adolphe Thiers said:
Himmler has too much blood on his hands, he has to go. Maybe if it was somebody neutral like Rommel, Beck, or Goerdeler. Even then probably not. Also, the soldiers probably wouldn't fight anyway. There were demobilization riots OTL, things would be worse if war continued after 1945. Something would have to convince the masses that the Soviets had to be stopped.

Interesting. What chance would you give a Beck or Manstein lead Germany with the allies, against the soviets circa battle of berlin. An all out frontal assault to break the pocket around the city as a starting point.

iddt3 · Apr 17, 2015

GlobalHumanism said:
I mean, the allies knew about the Gulags and the Purges and extrajudicial killings in soviet occupied poland and still sent billions in lend-lease to uncle Joe.

Why would the allying with the nazis to preserve the balance of power in continental Europe be any different?

First off they were never at war with the Soviets, second, Nazi crimes already discovered up to that point were far worse, and third the Soviets were better at hiding their shit, and fourth at the time were the beneficiaries of a good deal of positive propaganda in the UK and US. The Russians were popular. The Germans were viewed by substantial portions of the population as irredeemably evil, and the SS was emblematic of that. In a non totalitarian society, you simply can't ignore that kind of public opinion.

GlobalHumanism · Apr 17, 2015

iddt3 said:
First off they were never at war with the Soviets, second, Nazi crimes already discovered up to that point were far worse, and third the Soviets were better at hiding their shit, and fourth at the time were the beneficiaries of a good deal of positive propaganda in the UK and US. The Russians were popular. The Germans were viewed by substantial portions of the population as irredeemably evil, and the SS was emblematic of that. In a non totalitarian society, you simply can't ignore that kind of public opinion.

Morally, I absolutely see your point, though Stalin did murder a lot more people over a longer course of time.
What I am saying though, is that the allies were opportunistic above everything else. And while yes the public were against the killings of the Nazi regime, a bunch of propaganda helped them ignore the killings of the soviet regime. I mean the doctors who massacred and vivsected the local populace in Japanese held manchuria were given asylum in the US due to the need of their medical research.

FYI, this is by no means a Nazi-wank. I am just contesting your point that it would be impossible to sell an opportunistic alliance.

Alex1guy · Apr 17, 2015

GlobalHumanism said:
Morally, I absolutely see your point, though Stalin did murder a lot more people over a longer course of time.
What I am saying though, is that the allies were opportunistic above everything else. And while yes the public were against the killings of the Nazi regime, a bunch of propaganda helped them ignore the killings of the soviet regime. I mean the doctors who massacred and vivsected the local populace in Japanese held manchuria were given asylum in the US due to the need of their medical research.

FYI, this is by no means a Nazi-wank. I am just contesting your point that it would be impossible to sell an opportunistic alliance.

Yeah no it would be, the Allies arent allying with the Nazis. Unthinkable was a contingency, and the WAllies wanted Nazi blood, they didnt just spend three years ripping the Germans a new one to suddenly make them an ally. Remember the blitz, fall of France etc.

jmc247 · Apr 17, 2015

Alex1guy said:
Yeah no it would be, the Allies arent allying with the Nazis. Unthinkable was a contingency, and the WAllies wanted Nazi blood, they didnt just spend three years ripping the Germans a new one to suddenly make them an ally. Remember the blitz, fall of France etc.

Unthinkable was what I think Churchill would have done if he had the political support in the United States and his own country. Sure he wouldn't have made a deal with Nazis, but at the same time he saw the German troops as tools of state power (any state) that he could use to re-balance the political situation in the East to retain a better balance of power on the continent.

He imagined I am willing to bet knowing his personality that he could give a great Iron Curtain speech as PM and that he was so respected by his public and the U.S. public that they would follow him and build up along with building up German troops and force Stalin to back down on his plans to dominate Eastern Europe or they would drive the Russians out of Eastern Europe.

He didn't understand the reality that he and the U.S. just spent years protecting Uncle Joe from bad reports of atrocities in Poland and blaming it on the Germans in the press and building up the Russians as defenders of freedom and that in terms of his potential allies who could mobilize the Germans for war the only one politically who hadn't been villianized to the extent where that would be politically unpalatable in the West to be used to lead a quickly re-built German armed force had already been forced to commit suicide the year before.

The Anglo-American world did too good a job of its wartime messaging for them to just grab a living commander like Von Rundstedt or Admiral Donitz and say you are the new commander of German forces in 1945 and now you operate under the 'direction' of London and Washington and we are going to use you to check the Soviets from invading and maybe preemptively invade with us if we so decide.

The common theme and imagery for men like Von Rundstedt, Donitz, and a great many other high level German officers tended to involve Nazi snakes, dead bodies, bloody swastikas, etc. obviously there was one glaring exception that proves the rule, but he was long since dead by the point we are talking about.

Well the Time magazine covers below about sums it up, they really brought out the best artists in the U.S. and Britain to aid the Total War effort.

GlobalHumanism · Apr 17, 2015

jmc247 said:
Unthinkable was what I think Churchill would have done if he had the political support in the United States and his own country. Sure he wouldn't have made a deal with Nazis, but at the same time he saw the German troops as tools of state power (any state) that he could use to re-balance the political situation in the East to retain a better balance of power on the continent.

He imagined I am willing to bet knowing his personality that he could give a great Iron Curtain speech as PM and that he was so respected by his public and the U.S. public that they would follow him and build up along with building up German troops and force Stalin to back down on his plans to dominate Eastern Europe or they would drive the Russians out of Eastern Europe.

He didn't understand the reality that he and the U.S. just spent years protecting Uncle Joe from bad reports of atrocities in Poland and blaming it on the Germans in the press and building up the Russians as defenders of freedom and that in terms of his potential allies who could mobilize the Germans for war the only one politically who hadn't been villianized to the extent where that would be politically unpalatable in the West to be used to lead a quickly re-built German armed force had already been forced to commit suicide the year before.

The Anglo-American world did too good a job of its wartime messaging for them to just grab a living commander like Von Rundstedt or Admiral Donitz and say you are the new commander of German forces in 1945 and now you operate under the 'direction' of London and Washington and we are going to use you to check the Soviets from invading and maybe preemptively invade with us if we so decide.

The common theme and imagery for men like Von Rundstedt, Donitz, and a great many other high level German officers tended to involve Nazi snakes, dead bodies, bloody swastikas, etc. obviously there was one glaring exception that proves the rule, but he was long since dead by the point we are talking about.

Well the Time magazine covers below about sums it up, they really brought out the best artists in the U.S. and Britain to aid the Total War effort.

So no one other than Rommel could be stomached? If that's the case could you postulate what chance the allies in THAT ATL would have against USSR circa Battle of Berlin

iddt3 · Apr 17, 2015

GlobalHumanism said:
Morally, I absolutely see your point, though Stalin did murder a lot more people over a longer course of time.
What I am saying though, is that the allies were opportunistic above everything else. And while yes the public were against the killings of the Nazi regime, a bunch of propaganda helped them ignore the killings of the soviet regime. I mean the doctors who massacred and vivsected the local populace in Japanese held manchuria were given asylum in the US due to the need of their medical research.

FYI, this is by no means a Nazi-wank. I am just contesting your point that it would be impossible to sell an opportunistic alliance.

There is a huge and fundamental difference between grabbing a few researchers and turning on your ally to wage total war against them. Not only do you have the nearly unclimbable hill of public opinion against Nazis, you have fairly strong opinion for the Soviets, and the specter of revolt if you turn on them, and most importantly, the US just wages a 4 year (Six for the UK!) total war! No one is going to have the faintest illusions that a war against the Red Army is going to be quick and easy, so that means signing on to fight another, longer war, with worse logistics and less popularity. It is ASB without substantial PODs that likely make WWII unrecognizable anyway.

As to Unthinkable, Churchills terrible spitball idea it may be, even that didn't contemplate leaving the likes of Himmler in charge and *allying* with him. There is a *remote* possibility, that, with lots of terrible luck, miscommunication, and general provocation, that the WAllies and USSR could get into a shooting war, but it would be fought over the corpse of Germany, any German troops would be thoroughly subordinated Auxiliaries.

GlobalHumanism · Apr 17, 2015

Alex1guy said:
Yeah no it would be, the Allies arent allying with the Nazis. Unthinkable was a contingency, and the WAllies wanted Nazi blood, they didnt just spend three years ripping the Germans a new one to suddenly make them an ally. Remember the blitz, fall of France etc.

Again, historical precedence disagrees. Look at any attitude towards Hirohito in 1944 and then see how the allied media portrayed him circa 1946.

1940s propaganda was so easy to manipulate, if Operation Unthinkable was a serious consideration I'm extremely confident the Allied PR patrol could paint anyone previously demonized as a victim of circumstance.

Nocrazy · Apr 17, 2015

Stalin could have found out about Unthinkable, and gone to war in Germany. The Soviets are gonna have a huge advantage, in terms of veterans, numbers, and generals. However, the skies are gonna be key to winning the war. The Allies could try to take control, as that was one of their best fields, with the Spitfire, radar, etc. America can outstrip the Soviets, and we would probably see the fighting reach Strasbourg. By then, Soviets are exhausted, and an Allied counter begins.

Napoleon IV · Apr 17, 2015

GlobalHumanism said:
Again, historical precedence disagrees. Look at any attitude towards Hirohito in 1944 and then see how the allied media portrayed him circa 1946.

1940s propaganda was so easy to manipulate, if Operation Unthinkable was a serious consideration I'm extremely confident the Allied PR patrol could paint anyone previously demonized as a victim of circumstance.

Once we entered Japan we realized that Hirohito's actual role was not that of a Hitler-type leader, and that he didn't exercise near as much power as we thought he did. Furthermore the face of Japanese imperialism was Tojo, who was hanged after the war.

Since the Holocaust has already been revealed by this point the Allies have two options if they want to work with Himmler:

1. Deny the Holocaust: the Allies would have to say "We made this whole thing up to discredit the Germans." This would kill their credibility and make it impossible to claim Soviet crimes as a casus belli. The population would ask "And how do we know you're not making this up as well?" And if the word got out that the Holocaust was real and the Allied governments had lied about lying, then it would be even worse for them.

2. Ignore the Holocaust: The Allies would have to say "It happened, but we don't care." This would be one of the greatest things to happen to the Soviets, since now they can claim that the Allies are just like the Nazis. And the population would never accept this. Whatever reason they would have for fighting the Soviets would die in an instant, since they freely admit to not caring about far worse crimes. American and the UK aren't totalitarian states, they can't simply sweep things under the rug and make the population obey them.

And from the German standpoint this wouldn't work. By 1945 Germany was starving, bombed out, was forced to confront the genocidal work of their government, and was having to draw on young boys and retirees to fill its ranks. The average German just wanted the war to be over, and they would not go along with more war and more destruction, particularly one that was between two occupying powers. The Allies and Himmler would have to completely remake the Nazi state, which by then had essentially ceased to exist in much of Germany.