Is a Anglo Dutch Union possible?
- Thread starter Lateknight
- Start date
Is it possible? Kind of sort of, maybe, not realy, but technically yes.
There was the time the Dutch rebels offered the rule of the Netherlands to Queen Elisabeth, which she refused, because she ddn't want to get into conflict with Spain.
There was the time when Cromwell offered a union with the Dutch Republic, which the Dutch refused, because they considered themselves better of without being ruled from London.
And lastly there was the kinda sorta personal union between the Netherlands and England.
All of those could technically work, but aren't likely to. Besides those? I don't think so.
What would be the effects? Hard to say. Depends on when and why and how.
Maybe William II and his wife Ann keep the country in the House of Orange .Not a union but it would be sort off like one .If the Dutch and English are ruled by the same family they might work together in things like fighting Spain or France and ruling the seas .
The Franco-Spanish alliance of the American Revolution was an alliance between Bourbons right ?Or was France ruled by someone totaly unrelated
The Franco-Spanish alliance of the American Revolution was an alliance between Bourbons right ?Or was France ruled by someone totaly unrelated
It would be quite the same as merging Google and Apple.
Massive destruction of value (1 + 1 = 1,2 maybe) since Britain and the United Provinces were competitors on many of the market segments where they had strong positions. Remembrer they west to war against one another several times.
And It would pose Britain the same problem as Hanover : permanently expose it to land attacks and huge defence costs at the ex pense of the Navy.
Massive destruction of value (1 + 1 = 1,2 maybe) since Britain and the United Provinces were competitors on many of the market segments where they had strong positions. Remembrer they west to war against one another several times.
And It would pose Britain the same problem as Hanover : permanently expose it to land attacks and huge defence costs at the ex pense of the Navy.
So hypothetically it's in Britain's best interest to prop up a small country full of rich merchants to "compete" with?
Elizabeth I was also offered the Dutch crown in 1583 - another POD, though I can't comment on the long-term viability of either a union or union of crowns.
There was also the inheritance agreement if Philip II and Mary I had a child: he or she would receive both England and the Burgundian lands.
TinyTartar
Banned
Some kind of parallel rule like with England and Scotland under the Stuarts is possible beginning with William.
There is no reason before that for any true union because it would fuck up global trade too much, as others have said.
Another possibility would be that the Normans conquer Frisia in one of their foreign adventures after somehow it does not get amalgamated into the HRE, and with the right marriage, you get a ruler of England, Ireland, and Frisia all in one.
There is no reason before that for any true union because it would fuck up global trade too much, as others have said.
Another possibility would be that the Normans conquer Frisia in one of their foreign adventures after somehow it does not get amalgamated into the HRE, and with the right marriage, you get a ruler of England, Ireland, and Frisia all in one.
TinyTartar
Banned
Cleves is a German ministate, not any kind of county with any ties or rights over the Netherlands. It might just mean that the English have another Hannover on their hands, although I am not sure how the lines of succession would work out in such a situation.
And the Lutheran character of Cleves would make any match with Mary Tudor a difficult thing to manage.
Henry VIII wanted this marriage to happen to Mary but did not happen because Mary does not want to consent to this marriage, Henry VIII could force his daughter to marry him, the question is how?
TinyTartar
Banned
If Henry really really wanted it, it would have happened. It did not end up happening because it was not nearly that important. Henry was convinced he was going to have a healthy, male Protestant heir. Mary was the spare.
The point of the matter is that whether Mary Tudor ends up marrying into some small German county or not, it will bring the English no closer into having any sort of union with the Dutch.
The Duke of Cleves has claims on some Dutch Frisian Duchies and the English could help him.
Can we really say that William "ruled" the Netherlands? Didn't the Staaten General have a lot of say in everything the Dutch did, and could even strongarm him?
Also, if memory serves, he wasn't Stadtholder of the whole Netherlands, but mostly of Holland and usually Utrecht and Zeeland. But Guelders and Friesland had other people as Stadholders. It seems to me that at any point the Dutch could break the union, even in the case of a son for William and Mary, by either electing another individual or going the Stadtholderless route which they did historically.
Also, if memory serves, he wasn't Stadtholder of the whole Netherlands, but mostly of Holland and usually Utrecht and Zeeland. But Guelders and Friesland had other people as Stadholders. It seems to me that at any point the Dutch could break the union, even in the case of a son for William and Mary, by either electing another individual or going the Stadtholderless route which they did historically.
GdwnsnHo
Banned
Why not go a bit perverse with this - if the major issue behind an Anglo-Dutch union is exposure to mainland attacks, why not have the following
1) The Hundred Years war is won by Henry V, who has two sons. He makes the younger the Duke of "Francien", essentially the Royal Enforcer, and his eldest King of England. Eventually the War of the Roses in England is ended by the Duke of Francien coming across and crushing the Yorkists, and becoming King of England.
2) After the Hundred Years war and Roses are dealt with, then at some point the House of Lancaster/Royal House of Anglo-France, has the opportunity to take the throne of the Netherlands. Having their wealth, and traders would help the Empire, and France can EASILY provide the manpower to defend it, and as such is accepted.
Boom - Anglo-Dutch union via Anglo-French union.
1) The Hundred Years war is won by Henry V, who has two sons. He makes the younger the Duke of "Francien", essentially the Royal Enforcer, and his eldest King of England. Eventually the War of the Roses in England is ended by the Duke of Francien coming across and crushing the Yorkists, and becoming King of England.
2) After the Hundred Years war and Roses are dealt with, then at some point the House of Lancaster/Royal House of Anglo-France, has the opportunity to take the throne of the Netherlands. Having their wealth, and traders would help the Empire, and France can EASILY provide the manpower to defend it, and as such is accepted.
Boom - Anglo-Dutch union via Anglo-French union.
Franco-Dutch union, more like. This is just mega-France.
TinyTartar
Banned
The way things worked was that in times of relative peace and ease, things were run more or less in the form of a republic through the Stadtholders, however, in times of war and conflict, the Netherlands became the kingdom of the House of Orange, needing centralizing leadership.
The House of Orange functioned essentially like Roman Dictators.
GdwnsnHo
Banned
England is nominally in charge at least.
Whilst I'm aware that France is a cultural powerhouse, I'm not convinced that English Kings that forsake the English for French, are going to last long in France, when they've only recently conquered the country.
They'll want to divide French culture, and impose an aspect of Englishness - making it Anglo-French.
That is my opinion at least.
The alternative is to have something splinter France/the HRE so that the English don't think it is suicidal to get involved on the continent. ATL where the French and Germans are part of a post-Bulle HRE, deeply divided, and then England inherits territory in the netherlands - and as "Prince of Frisia" they expand in the Netherlands so the HRE doesn't get involved.
Or, have the English somehow become part of the HRE, and set themselves up in the Netherlands.